IN RESPONSE TO CHAT SESSIONS: Dear Power of Forgiveness participants, The logs of this week's attended chat sessions are now posted in separate threads under the GENERAL DISCUSSIONS CATEGORY. Both contain insightful interchanges. Feel free to add your own commentary as you would to any other post. I promised while chatting with Janice Jenson that I would send her a copy of Benjamin Franklin's "Parable Against Persecution," a rationale for forgiverness which Franklin wrote in Biblical style, on behalf of what is widely known in the Judeo-Christian tradition as the "highest authority." In addition to being unusual, Franklin's parable is also unusually good. Accordingly, I am including it in this message to you all, prefaced by Ralph Waldo Emerson's one-liner concerning how UNforgiveness works: THOSE WHO ARE EXCLUSIVE EXCLUDE THEMSELVES (Emerson) A Parable Against Persecution by Benjamin Franklin And it came to pass after these things, that Abraham sat in the door of his tent, about the going down of the sun. And behold a man, bent with age, coming from the way of the wilderness, leaning on a staff. And Abraham arose and met him, and said unto him, Turn in, I pray thee, and wash thy feet, and tarry all night, and thou shalt arise early in the morning, and go on thy way. But the man said, Nay, for I will abide under this tree. And Abraham pressed him greatly; so he turned, and they went into the tent; and Abraham baked unleavened bread, and they did eat. And when Abraham saw that the man blest not God, he said unto him, Wherefore dost thou not worship the most high God, Creator of heaven and earth? And the man answered and said, I do not worship thy God, neither do I call upon his name; for I have made to myself a god, which abideth always in mine house, and provideth me with all things. And Abraham's zeal was kindled against the man, and he arose and fell upon him, and drove him forth with blows into the wilderness. And God called unto Abraham, saying, Abraham, where is the stranger? And Abraham answered and said, Lord, he would not worship thee, neither would he call upon thy name; therefore have I driven him out fmm be-fore my face into the wilderness. And God said, Have I borne with him these hundred and ninety and eight years, and nourished him, and clothed him, not withstanding his rebellion against me; and couldst not thou, who art thyself a sinner, bear with him one night? And Abraham said, Let not the anger of the Lord wax hot against his servant; lo, I have sinned; lo, I have sinned; forgive me, I pray thee. And Abraham arose, and went forth into the wilderness, and sought diligently for the man, and found him, and returned with him to the tent; and when he had entreated him kindly, he sent him away on the morrow with gifts. And God spake again unto Abraham, saying, For this thy sin shall 'thy seed be afflicted four hundred years in a strange land; But for thy repentance will I deliver them; and they shall come forth with power, and with gladness of heart, and with much substance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stay in the grace, Noel McInnis noelmcinnis@choosingforgiveness.com Dear Power of Forgiveness participants, While chatting with Caliope this week, we touched on the subject of emotional intelligence, and I promised to recommend some pertinent resources. Allearn has an 8-week course in "The Intelligent Emotions", which uses as its textbook Steven Pinker's How the Mind Works (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1999). The course is described as follows: This is a seminar investigation of a problematic question that has bedeviled philosophers and scientists alike for centuries: What is the nature of human emotion and what role does it play in our lives? Traditionally, psychologists have stayed clear of this debate, in part because the experience of emotion is so personal and complex and also because the study of emotion is fraught with issues of subjectivity that make scientific inquiry very difficult. Nonetheless, Professor Salovey has devoted considerable work to the problem of understanding the human emotions. From this work, Professor Salovey has developed the fascinating concept of emotional intelligence. Key seminar topics include: What sparks emotions? How do emotions influence our health? Are human emotions universal across all cultures? What happens to our thoughts and feelings during depression? What functions are served by complex social emotions such as jealousy and envy? Is love an emotion that can be studied through scientific research? And is there really a measure of emotional intelligence, such as an “EQ”? The course requires no prior knowledge of psychology. Full information on the course is at http://www.alllearn.org/course.jsp?C=10 The "breakthrough" book on emotional intelligence was Daniel Goleman's book by that title, EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE (New York: Bantam Books, 1995). Another well-known book on the subject is Jeanne Segal's RAISING YOUR EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE : A PRACTICAL GUIDE (New York: Holt, 1997). For further resources you may search for "emotional intelligence" under "Books" at AMAZON.COM. When I did so I was referred to 111 books, many of which have both professional and readers' reviews by which to gauge their interest and value. Stay in the grace, Noel McInnis noelmcinnis@choosingforgiveness.com CHAT SESSIONS: Wednesday, May 29, 2003 - 10 p.m., PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Noel McInnis, Caliope Psillos [Caliope Psillos enters chatroom] Caliope Psillos hi there Noel McInnis Hello, Caliope Caliope Psillos Hi Noel I have really found this course very helpful and interesting Noel McInnis How has it helped? Caliope Psillos It has taught me the mechanisms of forgiveness and what I can do to avoid forming a grudge Noel McInnis Do you feel that this is making a difference? Caliope Psillos Yes I do think so Noel McInnis Have you released any old grudges thaty you've been talking about? Caliope Psillos I think it has helped me to really release my 2 grudges with mu aunt and Lucy.I would just like to say i know they are very minor grievances and my family has gone through worse but these 2 iI am the odd one out. My family seem to love and always justify these 2 people Noel McInnis Why do you call them minor? Compared to what? Did you consider them minor before reading Wisenthal? Caliope Psillos I compare them minor to the grievances some other girls on the course have and to Wisenthal and to personal grievances i have dealt with in the past Noel McInnis I'm glad that you have your own experience as a point of reference here. That makes a big difference. Noel McInnis Grievances tend not to FEEL minor, however we may tend to discount them. Caliope Psillos i think the more you hate or hold a grudge the more major they become Noel McInnis They tend to grow because you feed them? Caliope Psillos yes and that is why i so much enjoyed about learning about the grievance story Noel McInnis Yes, deprived of the grievance story they tend to starve . . . Caliope Psillos yes that is a big step forward to conquering your grievance Noel McInnis What else has been helpful to you thus far? Caliope Psillos learning about blame Noel McInnis I call forgiveness "blameless" living - living in the absence of blame. Noel McInnis We were not born with blame. It did not exist on this planet until we invented it. Therefore, we have the power to de-invent it. Caliope Psillos yes if you can take responsibility for thing it is great but it is quite a huge thing to do Noel McInnis Interestingly, the definition of the word "responsibility" does not include "blame." Caliope Psillos do you find morally and socially people are disinventing these type of thing or are we being sucked down like a whirlpool Noel McInnis As I recall you have used the whirlpool metaphor before. Terrorism might seem to be having that effect. Noel McInnis Anything that makes us be like it tends to "suck us in." Caliope Psillos it is very sad I know it is extraordinary with the problems here but i feel safer Noel McInnis Why do you feel safer? Caliope Psillos i know the terrorists are very vindictive Noel McInnis You mean, of countries other than your own? Caliope Psillos yes europe usa and russia I am also wondering as to the real oigins of sars is it really from pigs Noel McInnis They've discovered that it came from civets - a marmot, or weasel-like animal. Noel McInnis You've just made me aware of how terrorism is primarily a Northern Hemisphere thing. It's one of those obvious things that one fails to notice while in the midst of the obvious. Caliope Psillos here really only a few people are stirring up alot of trouble and we have always tried to be kind to everyone a Greek lady i know is not scared to live on her farm after her husband died but anothe Greek lady was just murdered in her house nearby Noel McInnis Because of her nationality, or for some other reason? Caliope Psillos i think she was very rough with everyone and someone just took revenge Noel McInnis So it was personal, not ethnic. Caliope Psillos yes i believe there was no robbery Noel McInnis How free of ethnic and religious conflict is your country? Caliope Psillos you cannot belive what a wonderful country Zimbabwe has always been there has never been appartheid laws and there are many denominations free to worship.The conflict now is purely political Noel McInnis That's (relatively) wonderful. Is the political conflict primarily economic? Caliope Psillos there are 2 parties struggling for power and economic downfall has been an end result because we no longer have aid and that . I just like to stay neutral but Zimbabwe does have resources to improve like platinum just found Noel McInnis Changing the subject: What more would you like to get out of this course? Caliope Psillos i think just what i am continuing to learn at the moment and really become an instant forgiver for myself more than anyone Noel McInnis The good news is that a persistent, sincere intention to do so will, in time, make it so. Caliope Psillos can i ask you how fear is related with forgiveness Noel McInnis As I see it, fearfulness is one of the causes of feeling powerless. I have come to realize that all unforgiveness I have ever felt has been based on a feeling of powerlessness with reference to what is unforgiven. Noel McInnis The inability to make otherwise something that I would like to make otherwise is what I mean by "powerlessness." Caliope Psillos i completely understand what you say Noel McInnis The other aspect of this is that my unforgiveness is ultimately of the powerlessness - and thus myself - rather than of person or situation at which my unforgiveness is directed. Caliope Psillos you have hit the nail on the head Noel McInnis Would you believe that not everyone sees this as clearly as you do? Recognizing this dynamic is the prerequisite of letting go og the "blame game." Caliope Psillos thanks this is my first time to study psychology and it is so great Noel McInnis Ultimately, the study of psychology is the study of oneself. I have always looked upon psychology as a science of self-dominion - being in charge of one's own life. Noel McInnis Many people learn psychology in order to understand others. I use it to understand myself. Caliope Psillos just as a side line when my problem with lucy was at its worst my granny was telling me i was being stubborn and that is why i could not let go of my problem i would really love to do more allearn psychology and learn more about myself Noel McInnis I suspect you can also learn some psychology from your granny. Caliope Psillos ya my wonderful granny passed away now you see i also always thought lucy to have a different character and i had given her unenforcable rules Noel McInnis Whenever someone calls me something - like "stubborn" - I have trhe opportunity to ask myself, "what is there about me that would make someone else see me that way?" Pondering such questions is psychology. It's not about the other person (or me) being right or wrong, it's about why someone would have such an experience of me. I'm sorry your granny is no longer with you. Caliope Psillos thanks so am i but i have written down alot of her personal advice i was being stubborn because i was refusing to let my heart love lucy again for fear of being hurt Noel McInnis Now that is psychologically perceptive. You were being self-protective. Caliope Psillos i realise that lucy's experience of me are reflected in her own psychological scars Noel McInnis Precisely. Other people see us in the mirror of their own experience. So you actually understand quite a bit of psychology already, and are ready to study more of it. Caliope Psillos thanks i wanted to do the course on the intelligent emotions but my computor does not have the right connections i will buy the recommended course book Noel McInnis There is a growing literature on "emotional intelligence." Caliope Psillos is there anything you can recommend Noel McInnis I'll let you know. Right now I am beginnig to fade, so I will say "good night" (here) and "good day" (there) to get some sleep. I look forward to chatting with you again. Caliope Psillos thanks it was a great pleasure. goodnight Noel McInnis Likewise. We both learned some things, and that is always pleasurable. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace! Friday, May 30, 2003 - Noon, PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Janice Jenson, Noel McInnis [Janice Jenson enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hi there. I just now finished reading your latest posts. You've obviously given a lot of thought to forgiveness. Janice Jenson I'm finally catching up on my reading. Yes, I've thought a lot about forgiveness. It's part of what I'm called to deal in. Noel McInnis I've always defined "minister" as "someone who grows in public," and since forgiveness has to be shown by oneself if it is to be grown by others via one's own influence, it is a central dynamic of ministry. Janice Jenson Besides that, there's so much in the church that needs forgiving - not the least of which is me! Noel McInnis I once heard a minister say, "It's amazing what people will forgive in their minister, if they know that s/he loves them." He also said, "Your congregation doesn't care what you think until it thinks that you care." FORgiving is care-giving. Janice Jenson Yes. In one of the 9 sermons (and 12 lectures) that I listened to last week, one preacher cited an instance in which William Sloane Coffin preached a tough, prophetic sermon on the Vietnam war. A colonel in the congregation was very angry. Coffin asked him why he hadn't walked out. He said,"Because you stayed all night when my wife was dying and held her hand." Noel McInnis Excellent example. Noel McInnis (My eyes are watering - is there an emoticon for watery eyes?) Janice Jenson Do you expect anyone else to show up? Since I haven't been by a computer (except for a couple of days at my mother's last weekend), not only do I not know much about this medium, but I also don't know what participation you've had in this time slot. (Im don't know much about emoticons, either!) Noel McInnis Only once did more than one other person show up - and it was one that I missed. Caliope and I chatted on Wednesday evening, and that's been it to far. In any event, I don't mind one-on-one as long as they're not both me - i.e., so long as I am not beside myself. Janice Jenson Back to the subject and my line of work, I was helped by a former pastor of mine before going through the final process leading to ordination (26 years ago). He told me, "Remember that God loves every one of them." He had had a conflict-filled time in our congregation, where they even held a meeting one evening to try to get rid of him. When he made the comment about God's regard for the people, his wife tried to take it another direction by saying, "Except for Bill B...." (his most vocal and active opponent). His response was, "Bill was okay." I took that with me, and it's been pretty helpful from time to time. Noel McInnis Benjamin Franklin wrote a Biblical-style parable that reflects the same attitude. If I can find it, I'll send it to you. Janice Jenson I'm not familiar with it. Noel McInnis Hardly anyone is. He actuall wrote two stories in Biblical style. Janice Jenson One of the difficult things about presenting forgiveness in most settings, I think, is that in spite of what Dr. Luskin says about forgiveness being empowering, most people perceive it as exhibiting a weakness, a lack of ego. Noel McInnis I've had one to many experiences of being on a Board that wished to get rid of its minister (I was always the odd man out). Fortunately, I have never had a Board do that to me. Noel McInnis Yes, that is often the case. Why would people assume that the harder thing to do is a sign of weakness? Unforgiveness is effortless, however energetic. Janice Jenson I think that they see it as an abdication of rights. We are taught to fight for our rights, including the "right to be righteous." Noel McInnis Up to, it seems, the right to be wrongeous. Janice Jenson I don't know about "effortless." I've seen people sweat profusely over letting go. Noel McInnis I said that it is UNforgiveness that is effortless. Letting go is (paradoxically) quite effortful - and doesn't happen until the effortying (a way of holding on) ceases. Janice Jenson Oops. I misread. Yes, UNforgiveness is effortless. And it gives something to hold over someone else's head that may seem to produce more of a payback than the freedom than can come from forgiving. Noel McInnis Interestingly (in regard to presumably holding something over another's head), unforgiveness has been described as "holding onto a glowing ember while trying to throw it at someone." Janice Jenson I remember reading that in our materials. Noel McInnis That image, and the quote about our being "the skeleton at the feast" of anger, are among my favorite portrayals of unforgiveness. Janice Jenson Some years ago I heard a nurse speak about spiritual healing and tell about a severely arthritic woman whose problem she diagnosed as "unforgiveness." When they worked at forgiving, the woman's fingers became straighter and her hands and whole body less crippled. Noel McInnis I hadn't though of that before, either . . . unforgiveness as a clutching form of holding on. Janice Jenson Of course, who knows how many persons with bent hands are really only arthritic. Noel McInnis Are you familiar with Louise Hay's chart of the relationship between specific grievances and their manifestation in dis-eased body parts anf functions? Noel McInnis Itis in her book, You Can Heal Your Life. Janice Jenson No, I haven't seen that. Noel McInnis The chart has always been quite accurate with references to my dis-eases. For instance: cancer (in my case leukemia, fully remitted 40 years ago) is an indication that "something is eating you." Lower back pain is an indication of feeling a lack of support. Janice Jenson I've seen that. But aren't some conditions unrelated? One of the pitfalls in the subject of spiritual healing and "power of prayer" doctrines is that some persons aren't healed, and they are made to think that they are spiritually defective when I don't think they all are. Janice Jenson I also have a friend who had terrible back problems while serving as a co-pastor with a real stinker. For study leave one year she flew to Israel, and as soon as the plane took off, her back pain was gone. Noel McInnis Your friend rests Louise Hays' case. Yes, people can be pretty arrogant sometimes about the effectiveness of others' prayer power- as well as about their own. In my view, God never says "no" to prayer, just "not yet" - or else "yes" in an unexpected (and thus unrecognized) way. Janice Jenson I agree. Prayer can be just another way of trying to manipulate a situation - and God. Noel McInnis There's more than one way for God to "yes" any given prayer. Noel McInnis It's time for me to leave and join my wife on her lunch hour. We're hunting for a larger apartment today. So many books, and so little space . . . Janice Jenson Thanks for your time. I also have to try to connect with someone whose wife died while I was away. Noel McInnis See you next week at this (or some other) time? Noel McInnis In the meantime, stay in the grace! Janice Jenson Probably some other time. I still have to figure out the time difference. Noel McInnis O.K. You are in New York, as I recall, so that is three hours later than the time I post (PDST). Janice Jenson Do I just log off now? Noel McInnis Yes, click on "Logout". Seeya! Janice Jenson Okay. Thursday, June 5, 2003 - 6:30 a.m., PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and to rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Dilys Gaye Katsamas, Caliope Psillos (the course instructor, Noel McInnis, was prevented from attending). Caliope Psillos hi dilys how are you Dilys Gaye Katsamas Hi Caliope I'm fine thanks. How are you? I was wondering who'd show up today. This is the only chat I've been able to do. I wonder also where everybody is these last two weeks-if maybe people were more here for personal than political forgiveness. Caliope Psillos i am fine thanks .yes i think people are more here for personal rather than political forgiveness Dilys Gaye Katsamas Another thing I wonder is why women go for forgiveness courses more than men. Do you think we take things more personally than they do? Caliope Psillos i think women just admit it more easily than men. but also maybe men are not as sensitive. Dilys Gaye Katsamas Maybe they find it easier to admit to grudges. Perhaps it's more macho to have a grudge than admit being hurt. I like the course. The thing is to stick with it long-term, not just say it was good then go away and forget it! Caliope Psillos i quite agree. what time is it there. are you in Greece Dilys Gaye Katsamas I don't know if they keep track of former students on the alllearn forgiveness course like they do the Stanford ones, to see if they stick at it...It's about 4.50pm in Athens. What time do you have? Your name is Greek isn't it...did you used to live here? Caliope Psillos it is my first time to do an allearn course and a stanford course but i am sure you are right i have thoroughly enjoyed the course and learnt alot. i am greek third generation born in zimbabwe Caliope Psillos sorry i forgot to say it is about 3.50 pm an hour behind you Dilys Gaye Katsamas Many of my husband's family live outside Greece.Things got hard-and they left for South Africa and Australia like so many.. It's better here now but the problems in Serbia and Albania affect us - refugees, resentment. That's partly why I'm doing the course. Caliope Psillos yes i believe the refugee problem is quite bad they have lots of kids and the greeks don't Dilys Gaye Katsamas Last year one cousin came here from S Africa after being robbed there. She brought her 2 girls for 6 months but found Athens noisy and expensive and went back! Caliope Psillos africa does have alot of problems but avery high quality of life. where were you born? Dilys Gaye Katsamas Yes the Greeks don't want their children mixing with the Albanians inschool. They say they'll hold them back but actually some of them study hard as their only hope of progressing. Also they get blamed for crime. As they do in England-I was born there. Caliope Psillos i studied in England and really enjoyed it. the weather there made me realise how lucky i am in Zimbabwe.i enjoy going to London and Greece for holidays. Dilys Gaye Katsamas Athens is improving because the Olympics is coming next year. Though there's a joke going round about the state of the preparations: what year will the Athens 2004 Olympics be held?! Greeks are inventive-I should think it'll be ready. Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 6:30 a.m., PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and to rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Noel McInnis, Caliope Psillos Caliope Psillos hi there Noel McInnis Hello, Caliope. Caliope Psillos i would like to start by saying thank you very much for a most interesting lovely and beneficial course Noel McInnis Your appreciation is appreciated in return. Caliope Psillos it is my first online course and i want to get the most out of it Noel McInnis I gather from your posts that you have done just that. Caliope Psillos thankyou very much i cannot tell you how much i have learnt my mom does a bible study which also teaches me alot but this has really been excellent Noel McInnis This course adds another dimension to forgiveness: Forgive them, for they do not what they know. Caliope Psillos i think most people do not know their true selves and if peolple did know what they were doing they would not do it Noel McInnis Yes, and most people also tend to do what they think will them get them their way rather than what they know to be right. Noel McInnis We KNOW at some level that an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind, yet we pursue that course anyway. Caliope Psillos yes i have realised i sometimes get upset to get my own way but that is not too often. do you think man is getting progressively worse as time goes by eg more selfish etc or do you think we have hope Noel McInnis I am convinced that if human beings were as sinful as many people believe we are, we would have become extinct long ago. We are instead becoming more humankindly. Caliope Psillos that is so good to hear i also believe in God's hands man is coming full circle again to what he was supposed to be Noel McInnis I've actually done a rewrite of the Garden of Eden story that makes that very point. I will send it to you. Caliope Psillos that would be so good. my granny told me that the tree of knowledge was self control Noel McInnis Your granny was correct. And I prefer to call it self-dominion. Noel McInnis Knowledge of good and evil is the prerequisite of the ability to choose, and choice is the power of self-dominion. Caliope Psillos do you think we will ever have a time like Noah again where the whole world perished Noel McInnis Yes, most likely as a consquence of our disruption of the Earth's ecology, or as a consequence of an asteroid collision like that which extincted the dinosaurs. Caliope Psillos yes the environment is a great worry Noel McInnis Earth was once a global snowball, which wiped out most of what was living previously. Caliope Psillos at what time was that Noel McInnis During the pre-Cambrian period. Upon its melting, life exploded. We cannot extinguish life itself, only the complex forms thereof. Noel McInnis This is, by the way, as controversial a theory today as was the continental drift theory nearly a century ago, and the dinosaur exteniction theory 30 years ago. Caliope Psillos what is the difference between philosophy and psychology Noel McInnis Philosophy is about what "makes things tick" overall. Psychology is about what makes people tick. Noel McInnis Forgiveness and unforgiveness may be considered "philosophies of life." Caliope Psillos it is my first time ever to study psychology and i have really enjoyed it. i tried to do philosophy of science at university but it was so difficult Noel McInnis I agree about the difficulty of philosophy of science. And, it just so happens, that my understanding of forgiveness was initiated by understanding of relativity and quantum theory. Caliope Psillos i heard that Socrates was the first man to believe in one God he called it one Dynamis Caliope Psillos in a Church in Mount Athos he is recognised as a Saint Noel McInnis You've just told me something about Socrates that I've either forgotten or was not aware of. I thought the Egyptian Pharoes were the first to believe in monotheism. Which is where Moses got the idea of one Hebrew God. Noel McInnis As if God could be Hebrew, Christian, etc. :) Caliope Psillos maybe you are right someone said that Einstein said we have climbed the mountain of Science only to find a band of Theologians sitting there for centuries Noel McInnis That's another good one I had forgotten. I'll add it to my compendium of quotable quotes. Caliope Psillos what happened with you and the quantun theory Noel McInnis It's still happening. My forthcoming book on self-forgiveness will reflect its influence. Unforgiveness presumes an illusory certainty about those whom we do not forgive. Caliope Psillos are your books availible from amazon may i have their titles Noel McInnis All of my previous books were either self published decades ago or are now out of print. Caliope Psillos that is a pity well we never know the power of a mans secret repentance so we cannot deny him forgiveness Noel McInnis I will upgrade them in new editions after my self-forgiveness book is published. Caliope Psillos oh that is great Caliope Psillos discernment is the highest gift but usually the last one man acquires Noel McInnis Our not knowing of that power is part of the previaling uncertainty that makes unforgiveness so presumptuous. Noel McInnis What are you going to study next? Caliope Psillos i am going to take a break i have been studying for 10 months the computor drivers license then environ cosmetics now forgiveness Noel McInnis It's important to take a break from time to time in order to assimilate. Caliope Psillos yes i quite agree but i hope to do some intersesting reading in the meantime Noel McInnis Such as? Caliope Psillos i hope to read the orthodox way by bishop kallistos ware and start on the intelligent emotions i got your e mail about them Noel McInnis So you're reading to stretch your thinking. Caliope Psillos yes that's it i also adore learning things on the internet Noel McInnis The Internet is Earth's largest university: M.S.U. Noel McInnis Which stands for "making stuff up." Caliope Psillos i also find you can learn alot form the movies and tv if they are didactic Noel McInnis Which is what we do whenever we do new thinking. Noel McInnis Have you seen "The Matrix" (speaking of making stuff up)? Caliope Psillos no i did not manage to see that one i believe there is a sequel Noel McInnis The sequel is playing right now. Caliope Psillos it should get to zimbabwe a bit later do you recommend it Noel McInnis Yes. It's ultimately about the socio-political matrix that shapes our view of reality. I also recommend seeing the original prior to the sequel, if possible. Caliope Psillos i can maybe get it on video Noel McInnis Excellent idea. Noel McInnis The hero, Neo, is meant to be a Christ figure. Caliope Psillos i heard it was very good and a blockbuster Caliope Psillos was Noah supposed to be a Christ figure Noel McInnis Insofar as Noah "saved" the planet's life forms he might be considered a Christ figure. Caliope Psillos thanks and what did neo the hero do Noel McInnis He saw through the illusion of socio-political "reality." Noel McInnis As did Jesus in his day. Caliope Psillos i look forward to seeing matrix Caliope Psillos Jesus was the first psychologist Noel McInnis Jesus was the first trans-personal psychologist. Moses was a pretty good social psychologist. Noel McInnis It's is time for me to go. I have two boys to deliver to school. Caliope Psillos ok it was great chatting take care bye Caliope Psillos and thanks Noel McInnis Stay in the grace!