IN RESPONSE TO CHAT SESSIONS: Dear Power of Forgiveness participants, The logs of this week's attended chat sessions are now posted in separate threads under the GENERAL DISCUSSIONS CATEGORY. Both contain insightful interchanges. The October 23 session addressed issues of self-forgiveness. The October 24 session addressed issues of releasing oneself from unforgiveness of others as well as from their unforgiveness of you. Feel free to add your own commentary to either or both sessions as you would to any other post. Since only two of the three chat sessions were attended by others than myself, perhaps their timing could be improved. Anyone who is really interested in attending a chat session that can't make it on Wednesday evenings at 10 p.m. PST, Thursday morning at 6:30 PST, or Friday at Noon PST, please let me know what time(s) and day(s) are best for you, via an e-mail addressed to noelmcinnis@forgivenessfirst.com . [Signature block and help footer] CHAT SESSIONS: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 6:30 a.m., PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Noel McInnis, Melitta Rorty [Melitta Rorty enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hello, Melitta. Melitta Rorty Hi Noel, good morning Noel McInnis No one showed up last night, and I was hoping someone would this morning. Melitta Rorty That's too bad, I do hope more show up this morning. Noel McInnis Participation in the course this term is lighter than usual and chat participation has always been light. Melitta Rorty I noticed that there was a big drop-off in the discussion participation...I thought I would try the chat since I have never done and online course and wanted to see how it works. Noel McInnis So this is your first chat session? Melitta Rorty I know for myself that I got behind on the reading, so didn't participate as much. I am working on getting caught up. Yes, this is my first chat session. Noel McInnis Perhaps the best strategy for this class would be to ask more questions that don't sound like one has to have done the reading in order to respond them. Melitta Rorty Or maybe a mix of questions... Noel McInnis Yes, with a clear designation of those that don't require being caught up to answer. Noel McInnis So what would you most like to know about forgiveness at this point? Melitta Rorty Just before popping on here I was reading your comments about the US "forgiveness" of Japan and Germany after WWII. I had never thought of it that way, and since our policies seem so utterly self-serving I am still contemplating it. Noel McInnis What truly serves the interest of the part tends to serve the interest of the whole . . . Noel McInnis . . . and what does not serve the interest of the part tends not to serve the interest of the whole. Melitta Rorty As for what I would like to know about forgiveness, I have still not gotten to Luskin's HEAL method, so feel I need to read/listen to that. I jumped ahead to the larger (political) arena of forgiveness to try to be caught up on the discussions, but what I am really interested in is forgiveness on a personal level. Noel McInnis The personal level is where all forgiveness begins. Forgiveness in South Africa began at the personal level with Nelson Mandela. Melitta Rorty I am glad you keep reminding me of "big picture" situations where forgiveness has actually happened and progress has been made. Melitta Rorty I signed up for this class because of a personal matter where I feel I need to forgive to move on, but being a person that is hard on myself and demanding of myself I am really discovering that I need to forgive MYSELF. Noel McInnis Once I have fully forgiven myself, little remains to be forgiven elsewhere and is relatively easily accomplished. Melitta Rorty Yes, I think the biggest challenge is forgiving oneself! Noel McInnis I'm writing an entire book about self-forgiveness, which is probably still a couple of years away from publication. Melitta Rorty Too bad, I could use it now...but really these readings and the tape have gotten me to at least realize that I need to forgive myself for my mistakes, etc. Noel McInnis That realization is 90% of the accomplishment. It allows one to focus on the real (and only) problem. Noel McInnis I look upon my mistakes as miss-takes, just as filmmakers do. When they make a miss-take, they do a re-take, rather than beat themselves up for their miss-takes. Melitta Rorty It is interesting, my sister (who is a Ph.D. clinical psychologist) had encouraged me to forgive myself and had recommended some resources. I thought I had made some progress in self-forgiveness using some of those resources, but then became convinced that I needed to forgive in the personal matter. Now I have come full circle and think the self-forgiveness is where I need to start. Noel McInnis Can you forgive yourself for not forgiving yourself? Melitta Rorty I think so, but it is an ongoing dialog! Noel McInnis What, specifically, would you be forgiving if you were forgive yourself for not forgiving yourself? Melitta Rorty Part of my challenge has been my own perception of myself. I think of myself as a smart woman, and have a hard time believing I could have made such stupid mistakes. I try to just see it as that was history, and there is only the present and learning from the past to move forward. As you can see from my slow reply, your question makes me think of so many possible responses that it is difficult to respond. Noel McInnis The question was deliberately intended to open up your possibility thinking. Please don't feel a need to rush to judgment in your response. Rushing to judgment is what UNforgiveness is all about . . . Noel McInnis Treat all responses initially as valid, and see how many there are. The one's that ring most true in contrast to the others will lead you to self-forgiveness. Melitta Rorty Actually, when comtemplating a complex issue, I know that I tend to come up with so many possibilities that I end up with a vat of thoughts and possibilities. Since that is the way my mind almost always works, I don't have a problem with that. This course has at least made me think, when a situation comes up where I have regrets or need to forgive myself, "What would forgiveness feel like?" Melitta Rorty So that is my present mantra. Noel McInnis Well put. What would forgiveness FEEL like, rather than what it would look like. Noel McInnis My mantra is "I am a forgiving person." It keeps me aware of when I am not living up to it. Noel McInnis In the given instance (of unforgiveness) I ask myself, "How does a forgiving person respond to this." (Not how WOULD, how DOES . . . "would" is theoretical, while "does" is actionable.) Melitta Rorty Both seem like good mantras! Mine always makes me feel better and gets me off of obsessing and on to larger perspective. Noel McInnis Stick with what works for you!!!!! Noel McInnis While exploring other workable possibilities. Melitta Rorty Just in this chat I am thinking of situations where I have have forgiven what others might think is unforgiveable. It has been one of the most amazing things in my life, and made me realize the enormous power of forgiveness. But I really think I need to contemplate forgiving myself more. "Exploring other possibilities" for me at this time means getting to a point a bit beyond "what would forgiveness feel like." Noel McInnis Can you specify what that point is? Noel McInnis It occurs to me that the "unforgivables" you have forgiven were the acts of others, and not your own. Melitta Rorty I am thinking that I know what forgiveness feels like (the actionable part as you say), but my question "what would forgiveness feel like" is of course about self-forgiveness. So yes, it is forgiving myself that is exploring other possibilities, going beyond where I am at present. Noel McInnis Perhaps you keep yourself in the double-bind that Wiesenthal was in, i.e., had he forgiven the Nazi officer, he could not have forgiven himself for doing so. Noel McInnis Is there anything you could not forgive yourself for forgiving? Melitta Rorty I was just reading Wiesenthal last night. I think I am not in his situation...I absolutely believe I could forgive myself (in the larger sense) and have no regrets. Being a contemplative person, I take awhile to get to a point, in this case of forgiving myself. Noel McInnis Ahhh. I, too, am a contemplative, and I can relate totally to what you have just said. My forthcoming book is entirely the product of my contemplations, and is accordingly written FROM my experience not only ABOUT my experience. Noel McInnis I contemplate questions whose answers always lead to further questions. All other questions tend to shut down my thinking. Melitta Rorty As you said, realization is 90%. But the 10% part is where I contemplate, and that does take time! But even this chat moves that process along. Yes, when I contemplate I often think I end up more befuddled, because I think of so many possibilities. Noel McInnis Here's an operational suggestion: go with the possibilities that feel as if they are choosing you. Melitta Rorty Well, it is about 7:30 a.m. and I should be getting on with my day. I am certainly glad I came to this chat, even if we didn't have more class participation. I will focus further on this idea of forgiving myself, and see what possibilities "choose" me. Noel McInnis I feel that this chat has been productive for both of us. With your permission, It will be posted for everyone else to see. That way everybody gets to attend the chat after all. Melitta Rorty Of course that is fine. Thanks! Noel McInnis Equal thanks to you, Melitta. Stay in the grace of your contemplations. Melitta Rorty Okay, bye! Signing off now, and I'll look forward to more discussions and chats. Friday, October 24, 2003 - Noon, PDST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Diane Border, Noel McInnis, Wendie Webber [Wendie Webber enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hi, Wendie. Wendie Webber Hi, Noel! Noel McInnis Your posts have been thought-provoking. Wendie Webber I'm afraid this is new technology to me so I feel like I'm limping along. As for my posts, my thoughts have been provoked. Much food for thought ... Noel McInnis Melitta is the only other one who has shown up in the chat room thus far. The first one was attended only by me . . . which made it a meditation room. Wendie Webber Perhaps it's just a timing problem for folks. Noel McInnis Perhaps, although these are the times that have worked best before. I'll take a poll when I announce the posting of last night's and this one. Wendie Webber Good idea. This chat room method seems to be more fluid than the discussions format. Noel McInnis Far more fluid - especially with multiple participants and the cross-fertilization of their commentaries. [Diane Border enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hello, Diane. Wendie Webber Hi, Diane! Diane Border HI, Noel & Wendie. I had trouble getting into the chat room, but here I am. Sorry I'm a bit late. . . Noel McInnis That's O.K. I'm glad you made it. We hadn't really got going yet. Wendie Webber Yes, I had trouble as well. Had to back out and try again. Worked on the second attempt. Diane Border Ditto Noel McInnis I've had no problem. I'll report yours to the powers that be. Perhaps there was a brief window of downtime. Diane Border I think that's what occurred. Wendie Webber I got a message saying there had been a disconnection ... ? Diane Border Wendie, I've enjoyed many of the observations and comments you've been making in the discussions. I've been reading more than I've been contributing the past couple of weeks, partly due to the rigors of having a six-month old! Wendie Webber Yikes! I thought I was busy! I do remember ... I'm behind on my reading. Haven't gotten into the commentaries on Wiesenthal's book. I am quite enjoying Luskin's book ... much more than Wiesenthal's, I think because it's more personal in nature. I find myself using my hi-liter often (a good sign - indicating things I want to review). I find myself at a stage in life that I just don't have time to devote to thinking about socio-political issues. I have to scale down to what's personally applicable. Noel McInnis So what would you both like to know about forgiveness at this point? Wendie Webber What I would like to know about forgiveness at this point is .... EVERYTHING I can apply immediately! Noel McInnis Then here's the industrial strength skinny on the subject: the only thing that requires forgiveness is the perception that forgiveness is required. Wendie Webber Ha, ha, ha! Yeah, I got that ... but how do I GET there ... NOW? Noel McInnis Work directly on the perception. As long I focus on WHAT I am perceiving I cannot alter HOW I am perceiving. Diane Border Noel, in answer to your question. . .I have gotten clear that I have powerfully forgiven the person who I had a grievance against. I came into the course with the lingering concern that perhaps I had just SAID I'd forgiven, but that there was something "wrong" with how I had forgiven the other person. I've done alot of work personally in this issue in the past couple of years, but am clear that I am harboring no lingering animus about the person or the grievances. HOWEVER, the other person is completely SHUT DOWN re: forgiveness. And, I think, views my forgiveness as a ploy. . . not genuine. What is there for ME to do?? Noel McInnis Where another's forgiveness work is concerned, there is nothing I can do beyond my own forgiveness of him/her. Noel McInnis Ultimately, forgiveness is not about the other person. It's about my own response to what the other person has done. Noel McInnis Or has not done. Noel McInnis Or is likely to do . . . or not. Wendie Webber Okay ... for example ... something I struggle with is this: my father-in-law is a sweet little old man. He's the guy on the block who helps everybody out. He's generous, thoughtful and kind. He's also a child-abuser. His daughter is an emotional wreck, attributed directly to repetitive molestations in her life. While I recognize this has nothing to do with me, I have many years of trying to come to terms with this. When my son was young, I was concerned about them interacting unsupervised. That is no longer an issue, yet there is this lingering feeling .... Noel McInnis Are you at the effect of the feeling, or in charge of it? Wendie Webber Good question ... I am definitely feeling a charge, but I am not re-active because of it. Diane Border Noel, you and I exchanged some comments about forgiveness being something that I generate within me. And I realize that forgiveness is about me and not the other person. But the other person, who is a family member, is keeping "her side" of the grievance alive and it has created a dreadful rift in my family in that she will not speak to me or acknoweldge my daughter, blah, blah, blah. The grievance "story" she has created is HUGE. The impact is on other family members, too. My forgiveness has allowed me to move on with my life joyfully. She is totally STUCK, and its heartbreaking, really. . . Noel McInnis I gather you arre not the effect of the heattbreak. Diane Border I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Noel McInnis Forgiveness is freedom FROM effects, not freedom OF them. Noel McInnis A la Jesus' promise of freedom FROM sin rather than OF it. Diane Border Oh, I see. . . I guess my secret wish was that true forgiveness would be powerful enough to create a clearing that the other party would step into. . . Noel McInnis Forgiveness is a change of my relationship to circumstances, not a change of the circumstances themselves . . . Noel McInnis . . . AND forgiving my circumstances frees them up for any change that may be thus made possible. Wendie Webber So, if I choose to no longer make it an issue .... then it's no longer MY issue? Noel McInnis Precisely, Wendie. Issues are issues only for those who own them as such. Diane Border And they have free will as to whether they do in fact change, or go through the rest of life holding the grievance. . . Wendie Webber So, in a way, by forgiving I am no longer REQUIRING my father-in-law to be case in the role of 'evil-doer.' I can just see him as an old man with a tainted past? Wendie Webber So, I leave him to his own devices - he has to live with himself (memories) . I DON'T. Diane Border There you go! That's good. . . Noel McInnis As long as I make a burden of another's unforgiveness, I am essentially still caught up in unforgiveness Wendie Webber This 'burden on another's unforgiveness' bridges over to our discussion regarding national forgiveness, wouldn't you agree? Noel McInnis Yes Wendie. The harder task is to see someone thusly who still has a tainted present. Wendie Webber Perhaps the most difficult task is to see someone UN-tainted by their actions, past, present, or yet to be .... Noel McInnis I agree. And all the while keeping in mind that forgiveness is the release of blame, not of wrongful circumstances. Forgiveness his does not mean that one blithely ignores wrong-doing. It's a matter of facing wrong-doing blamelessly. Wendie Webber Facing wrong-doing blamelessly ... there's the rub! Diane Border And so, whether you are a country or a person, do you continually make overtures of forgiveness. . .or do you go on with your life or collective lives having forgiven? Noel McInnis So long as I am unforgiving, I am attached to what I have unforgiven and cannot effectively deal with it because it effectively has a hold on me. Wendie Webber Ah ... like in 'Hotel California' ... "we are all just prisoners here, of our own device..." Wendie Webber With respect to a country making overtures of forgiveness .... I wonder what a "policy" of forgiveness might look like . The idea is real brain candy! Noel McInnis Right now, for many countries forgiveness would look like the uncondtional forgiveness of their debt to other countries. Noel McInnis Plus constructive assistance toward their not returning into debt. Diane Border Might it look like a rebuilt Germany after WWII. . .economic and social reconstruction? Wendie Webber In order to forgive anything there must first be sufficient motivation to forgive. What motivation might a country have to forgive a debt to another country? Noel McInnis It is sometimes eventually cheaper to forgive a debt than it is to deal with its consequences. Wendie Webber Good response... so if it is eventually cheaper to forgive a debt than it is to deal with the consequences ... what does that look like on a personal level? Noel McInnis Don't forget that forgiveness is always self-serving of the one who forgives before it can serve the one forgiven. Diane Border As a taxpayer, I don't know if i can align with that as a national policy. But interpersonally, I can get it. . . Diane Border Do you mean self-serving in a negative way, Noel? Noel McInnis Ideally, no. Wendie Webber This is sounding more and more like a debt-collection manual! Interesting ... there has to be a point at which it just isn't viable to continue to keep the debt on the books. Establishing that point ahead of time would be really helpful ... Noel McInnis Personally, it's a matter of whether you want to be "right" by fulminating over a debt, or be at peace by letting go of the fulmination - and not enabling further indebtedness. Diane Border Got it. Not enabling further indebteness is the key. Wendie Webber And the amount of emotional energy you have tied up in the debt keeps compounding, like interest, and so the debt keeps growing and growing and growing... Noel McInnis Yes. This is one sense in which forgiving is NOT forgetting. Noel McInnis Wendie: I already know ahead of time that at the point I have lost my peace of mind, it is time to release the debt - and responsibly cease to enable its re-creation. Noel McInnis Ceasing to enable other's shortcomings is one of the most powerful forms that forgiveness takes. Noel McInnis Paradoxically, the energy of my unforgiveness further enables those whom I have unforgiven. Diane Border Wow! OK, so on a personal level, if the other person's shortcoming is that they cannot "accept" my true forgiveness. How do I cease to enable that shortcoming. What does that look like? Noel McInnis Ceasing to enable means allowing others' issues to be entirely their business - which it always and only is. Diane Border Can you elaborate, Noel? Noel McInnis It is MY body/mind, not that of another, that suffers from my unforgiveness. Remember, unforgiveness is the poison I take intending to DISable another. Diane Border Got it. Wendie Webber I have a background in bookkeeping so the metaphor of 'bad debts' is very useful. Identifying when a debt has gone over to 'bad' is the trick. You identify this as the point that I have lost my peace of mind. Releasing the debt, then, involves recognizing that my expectation that this debt be fulfilled is unreasonable. Taking responsibility for ensuring this debt does not get re-created would entail not allowing them further 'credit'; so I can LEARN from the experience and identify this person's behavioral trait as THEIR liability, but not make it my own. Does that sound accurate? Noel McInnis Yes, Wendie. This is the equivalent, in Dr. Luskin's metaphor, of ceasing to write tickets that can't be delivered. Noel McInnis Or as Jesus put it: stop sending where nobody is receiving. His metaphors for this were: shake the dust from your feet of the city that does not receive you; and don't cast your pearls before swine. Wendie Webber So you quit calculating the interest and write off the debt as 'experience.' However, you retain in memory the event so you're not apt to repeat it. Noel McInnis YES!! There is only experience. Judging it is optional. Wendie Webber I LOVE that! Can I quote you? Noel McInnis Just own it and say it accordingly, as I have. I got it from Ronald Laing. Diane Border Yes, Noel. It is clear to me that the member of my family harboring the grievance is clearly suffering, and has organized alot of her life around it. BUt it is difficult for me to say that she is the only one suffering from unforgiveness. Their has been a good deal of suffering on a family level as the fallout from the rift. My parents, for instance, are heartbroken that their daughters are estranged. Noel McInnis I have to leave now. Getting a hitch on my car to pull a trailer to WIlsonville with the stuff we need until the movers arrive. Diane Border Thanks, Noel. Your last comments were quite powerful! Wendie Webber I have enjoyed this chat process. It is much more engaging than the discussion format. Thanks, Noel. Your comments were very helpful. Good luck with the hitch! [Wendie Webber leaves chatroom] Noel McInnis Diane: another thing Jesus said is 'of those who have much, much is expected." As the one who has forgiven, you are now the daughter who can most compasionately relate to your folks. Share with them from your understanding of forgiveness. Diane Border Indeed, my friend. And that is exactly what I am doing. Ironically, it has totally transformed my relationship with my parent (in a positive way, I mean). Not that I would look for a silver lining here. . .THANKS! Noel McInnis You're welcome. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace! Diane Border You too! Bye. . .