CHAT SESSIONS: Friday, March 26, 2004 - 7:00 a.m., PST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Chaya Douglas, Noel McInnis [Chaya Douglas enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hello, Chaya . Welcome to the chat room. Chaya Douglas Hello. Nice though daunting to be here Noel McInnis Is this your first experience in a chat room? Chaya Douglas Yes. Noel McInnis What is the daunting part? Chaya Douglas The fact that everybody can read what I say Noel McInnis Why is this more daunting than speaking up in a "Hi-there!" space classroom? Chaya Douglas It's really almost the same for me, only that here I have less time to consider what I say Noel McInnis That's true - especially when there are only two of us in the class. Noel McInnis That's why I like the discussion board - lots of time to consider what one says. Chaya Douglas And in spite of it I'm not sure how I've said sounds Noel McInnis Also true - sound (tone) is sometimes 90% of the meaning we communicate. Chaya Douglas I'm afraid I might have sounded a little smug, talking about my experiences with Shiatsu. I did not mean it . I wanted to say that I was familiar with the concept but from a different angle Noel McInnis You didn't sound smug to me. What has most interested you in the class thus far? Chaya Douglas The very methodical scientific approach. I guess we in the West need it. In the East, Buddhist are more familiar with the ideas of detachment. Chaya Douglas But we meet in the end at the same place, as we are all human beings Noel McInnis Yes, Buddhists tend to go by the subjective facts of experience rather than the objective facts of observation. Noel McInnis Someone once said that science is the Yoga of the West, designed to bring us to the same conclusions via a long detour. Chaya Douglas I like it. You made me laugh now. It's good Noel McInnis Sorry I can't hear the sound - but I can imagine it. Chaya Douglas I find meditation really helpful. I'm not good at 'sitting' on my own. So I meet with a friend once a week and we meditate together Noel McInnis I tend to be the same way with the usual forms of meditation. Since I am a contemplative, however, my contemplations tend to be a form of meditation. Noel McInnis What would you most like to get out of this morning's tutorial? Noel McInnis (Thus far it looks like a tutorial.) Long pause . . . Noel McInnis Did that sound intimidating? Chaya Douglas Well, I would like to talk about your series of questions at the end of the lists you've made for anger constructive/destructive and forgiveness Experience/challenge Chaya Douglas I could not think of a proper answer Chaya Douglas except for adding it all up Noel McInnis There are no "proper" answers (in my opinion), only fruitful questions. What would you like to say about the summaries? Chaya Douglas Things never stay the same, do they. We are responsible to how we feel It comes from us. We may respond , to similar event, completely different an hour later. Noel McInnis You've got it!! We never step into the same stream of consciousness twice. Chaya Douglas Also people see the same evnt differently.I think that my revelation came when I discovered that my sister and myself had different memory of the same event. I carried the hurt with me for 12 years .n Noel McInnis And she did not? Chaya Douglas She remembers it completely different with no hurt story in it Noel McInnis And how did you finally release it? Chaya Douglas I decided to talk it over with her Chaya Douglas It showed me how needless it was, to carry this heavy wight with me Noel McInnis Yes, conversation is one of the ways we either pollute of unpollute our stream of cosnciousness. Noel McInnis They help us to examine our assumptions. Chaya Douglas Also I find that walking and tai chi (well recommended) work for me. Noel McInnis Someone has said, "All walking is discovery. On foot we take time to see things whole." Chaya Douglas Thanks, that's really nice Noel McInnis One of my forgiveness techniques is to ask a question of my unforgiveness: "how many other ways might this be seen?" This is sometimes the focus of my contemplations. Chaya Douglas Excellent. Could I adopt it Chaya Douglas What do you mean by 'contemplation'? Thinking about it? Noel McInnis In contemplation, instead of focussing on a candle, my breath, etc., I focus on a single thought and see all the possibilities of where it leads. One of the things that I have discovered with this method is the pool of consciousness that feeds its many streams Noel McInnis The headwaters of consciousness, as it were. Noel McInnis (Pun not intended, but accepted as such in restrospect. :) Chaya Douglas This is for 'grown ups' isn't it? Knowing me there's the danger that I might start brooding Noel McInnis The presumption that we grow "up" is largely mythical. We instead accumulate a lot that requires un-growing. Noel McInnis When I begin to brood I bring my attention back to the original thought. Noel McInnis The idea is to see the inception of as many streams as possible from a single thought, and postpone following any one of them until later. Chaya Douglas As in meditation, being detached but mindful Noel McInnis Yes - in this case mindful of the multiplicity of ways of seeing something. Chaya Douglas It sounds interesting and productive. Will try it. Noel McInnis Another insight on walking: "Above all, do not lose your desire to walk. . . . Noel McInnis , , , I have walked myself into the best of thoughts." -Kierkegaard. Chaya Douglas I think that even in meditation, there's no one way that suits everybody. Noel McInnis Meditation is ultimately as individual as fingerprints. Noel McInnis Even if two people assume that they are using the same form of meditation in the same way, there's no way to really know that this is the case. Noel McInnis Many people are not even aware that their walking is a form of meditation. Chaya Douglas and it's such a wonderful experience, so why don't we all sit and meditate every day? Why don't they teach it at schools Noel McInnis They don't teach it in our schools because the Western way is "Don't just sit there, do something." Noel McInnis The Eastern way is "Don't just do something, sit there." Noel McInnis And allow . . . Chaya Douglas Big laugh, but unfortunately it's true. We do not have time for stillness Noel McInnis "To the person who can perfectly practice non-action, all things are possible." (Another of my favorite quotes. Noel McInnis I've enjoyed our "tutorial" and look forward to our being joined by others in the future. With your permission, I will post this chat for the others to read. It may encourage their participation in future ones. Noel McInnis (It takes about 24 hours for the chat log to become available) Chaya Douglas Thank you. I've enjoyed it. Noel McInnis You may join as many sessions as you would like, by the way. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace! Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:00 p.m., PST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Roberta Kramer, Rosalind Till [Instructor was absent] Rosalind Till Isn't this scarey? Roberta Kramer This is my first attempt at using Chat Room. I am definitely enjoying reading the course materials and hearing everyone's feedback . Rosalind Till Where are you from? Roberta Kramer Omaha area. Its a very warm springtime day here. I just got off work and had a brief chance to go shopping. So I'm changing my focus now. Rosalind Till Do you think we will be the only ones from the class to show up? Roberta Kramer I am less intimidated by a small group process. But hope others will join us. Thanks for signing on. Rosalind Till Thank you. May I ask why you joined this class? Wait, I should say why I joined it...I have been very interested, personally, and professionally, on the physiological and psychological effects that forgiveness has on the quality of life for a person....how about you? Roberta Kramer I have many reasons for taking this course: related to personal, wanting to help other members of my family, increase my knowledge and understanding, and to diminish that space in my mind that has recurring need for foregiveness. I totally agree with you, the effects of not forgiving are on the total person. Rosalind Till I like the phrase you use "diminish that space in my mind that has recurring need for forgiveness." I have been practicing substitution for my thoughts, even before I took this course....and I found I give too much space to others who are not doing IT the way I think I should...at least, I have learned not to project that on "them" but I am still stuck with my own thoughts...is this your experience? Roberta Kramer I believe it is. That I feel that I have tried to forgive others who have hurt/harmed me. But it is something that I need to revisit periodically. I try to be understanding of others feelings, but perhaps neglect my own needs too often. I attempt to avoid "blaming", or grievances but the thoughts recur, and I experience a sadness. But I am not sure if it is limiting me from experiencing other emotions. Rosalind Till I have learned to pay attention to my own needs...after many years....also to accept sadness....only lately can I experience all of my emotions without say the Should word. I should feel, I should act...I should....now I am in the stage of finding out what it is I want and enjoy....if this sounds pollyanna, it really isn't. it is tremendously difficult. Could we continue this conversation on e-mail, do you think? I have to go soon..but I really enjoyed this... Roberta Kramer Absolutely. You sound very wise. I think I am struggling with some of those processes that you've just mentioned. I too need to attend to other things at the moment. So will sign off. Thank you for your input. Plan to talk to you again later.