Monday, March 29, 2004 - 4:00 p.m., PST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Juracy Marques, David Marsh, Noel McInnis [Juracy Marques enters chatroom] Hi everyone! I'm so glad to be here and to be a participant of this chat. Noel McInnis Hello Juracy. So far, we're it. Noel McInnis How are you doing with your professed "need to accept reality?" Juracy Marques I wonder if we could discuss a little bit about idealism, considering when we do expect too much of the ones we love and admire. Noel McInnis The key word is "expect" Where there is no expectation, there can be no disappointment, and thus no unforgiveness. Juracy Marques Perhaps what I said before about idealism, has to do with the same problem: to accept reality. Noel McInnis Expectations tend to be idealistic. I needn't have expectations. What I can't -and would not want to - avoid is expectancy - a state of consciousness. Noel McInnis The secret is not to convert the state of expectancy into forms, i.e., expectations, which is easier said than done. Juracy Marques When we were a child, we loocked to our parents as if they were Gods. When we grew up we gradually understood that all of us, no matter young or old, are human beings.Only, then we start to learn how to forgive (I read thus sonewhere...). Noel McInnis Does this suggest that forgiveness is therefore more realistic than idealistic? [David Marsh enters chatroom] Noel McInnis Hello, David Juracy Marques Forgiveness, at least from my view point, requires knowledge or information on conflictive situations. David Marsh Hi David Marsh what's the topic? Noel McInnis We're discussing whether forgiveness is idealistic or realistic, and the extent to which having information is essential for forgiveness. For example, when I learn what REALLY happened, rather than what I thought happened, I am sometimes thereby more empowered to forgive. Juracy Marques In order to forgive one needs to be aware about what is the offense and some about the intention of the offender and how much meaning this offender has to us. David Marsh What about necessary versus unnecessary dimension? Noel McInnis Yes, Juracy, that can make forgiveness easier. Is it, however, absolutely essential to forgiveness? Juracy Marques But again we need to make distinction if it is something interpersonal (or is it always that way?) or it it is something that will produce consequences for other people Noel McInnis Is forgiveness dependent on information about other people, or can it be accomplished with only information about ourselves - i.e., information about how harmful to our own well-being unforgiveness is? David Marsh Are we not confusing forgiviness with just letting it go? Noel McInnis David: once something has been let go of, is it possible to still be unforgiving of it? David Marsh yes Noel McInnis How is that possible? David Marsh why isn't it? Noel McInnis My own principal reason to forgive is always for the sake of my own well-being. David Marsh Isn't that selfish? Juracy Marques Many times the husband-wife relationship produces problems and suffering to their children, in spite they don't know nothing about. Noel McInnis Yes, Juracy, I suspect that every child is hurt in some way by the inevitable friction between their parents. Juracy Marques What are the relationship between forgiveness and a sense of justice, Juracy Marques Sometimes, we have to fight for what we believe is the best for all those involved, not thinking only about our wellbeing. Noel McInnis Juracy, isn't it possible to fight for what we believe in unforgivingly? David Marsh Isn't letting go is removing impact on self & foregiving absolving offender? Noel McInnis Once something has truly been let go of, what is left to forgive? Juracy Marques I want to be a person who is inclined to forgive and to accept others as they are. But as you know, that is not an easy task to be accomplished. David Marsh the offending act itself & the offender [NOTE: At this point a power failure at Digichat's server abruptly ended our session. I was in the midst of addressing David's question about selfishness as follows when this happened] Noel McInnis Doesn't all forgiveness tend to be selfish, David, in light of Dr. Luskin's statement that the purpose of forgiveness is for the one who is forgiving to have peace of mind? [NOTE TO DAVID: if you would like to respond to this comment, please do so in response to this chat log's thread.]