Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - Noon PST The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order. In attendance: Juracy Marques, Noel McInnis, Kevin Miller Noel McInnis Juracy and I were discussing the relationship between forgiveness and being adequately informed when yesterday's chat session was abruptly truncated due to a power loss by the Digichat's service provider. Kevin Miller adequately informed of what the other persons reasonings were? Juracy Marques What are we going to discuss, today? I suggest that we perhaps could go back to the relationships between idealisation and acceptance of reality, as it is (?) Noel McInnis Basically, we disucss what is uppermost on the minds - relating to forgiveness - of those participating Noel McInnis Sometimes, Kevin, "adequate information" consists of knowing what actually happened rather than what we thought happened. Knowing why (including others' reasoning) is also helpful. And I would maintain that, ideally as well as realistically, it is also possible to forgive without any such information. Noel McInnis For instance, my own forgiveness is based first and foremost on my knowledge of the harmful effects of unforgiveness on my well-being. Kevin Miller Basically being able to see it from someone elses perspective...sort of like the reasoning in cognitive therapy where you give other plausible reasonings why the event could have occured so you don't take it as a personal assault...right? Noel McInnis Yes, Kevin, cognitive therapy is another valid basis for approaching forgiveness as an inside job. Juracy Marques "Forgiveness may foster more perceived security, and/or greater positive sel-evaluation", as Thoresen at al. said in their article. I would like to know more about "perceived security". How does it relate to the act of forgiveness? Noel McInnis I maintain that nothing has to change "out there" for be to be forgiving "in here." Kevin Miller Right, well I understand that...the event hasn't changed at all, but just how you view the event has changed Noel McInnis Yes, Kevin. Like a printed optical illusion on a page, that doesn't change at all itself when I suddenly see it differently. Noel McInnis Juracy: Security is ultimately perceptual rather than actual. Howard Hughes was a multi-billionaire, yet never for a moment lost his feelings of financial insecurity. He always felt that he was on the verge of being broke. Kevin Miller Perceived security is an interesting phrase :) I forgot my packet on the way to school, but I'll have to look at that later Noel McInnis If security were dependent on externals, no one would know what it feels like to be secure. Juracy Marques In order to have positive evaluation, I must - so I believe - know myself in a deeper sense, considering my hurt feelings and also my 'merits' of being a trustful person. Noel McInnis Feed back is the ONLY information I have on how I am perceived by others. Unless I have a strongly internalized sense of who I am, however (which is far more than what I think and feel, by the way), feedback can be more unsettling than it is informative. Juracy Marques I agree completely with that "my perceptions don't exist independent of myself", but they are influenced by others' opinions. Noel McInnis Yes, Juracy, and the secret to feeling secure within myself is to allow others' opinions to inform me rather than influence me. Juracy Marques Kevin, do you think that internality comes as a natural process or we need to make an effort to become more dependent on our own perceptions? Kevin Miller I'm not sure that I understand? What you seem to be expressing is either self esteem or identity formation but it seems that you would have to have that before if you were going to understand others? Kevin Miller I think there are some of both factors that play into that...I mean, I don't think that everyone has the same template for how they interact with each other, but at the same time the rationality of how we see others seeing ourselves is always a learning process. Noel McInnis As I understand the nature of perception, all understanding of others is relative to (because a projection of) my own self-understanding. Juracy Marques I remeber that in the theory of attribution, to reward effort was a very important issue in the results of learning and accomplishment and these would increase self esteem. Is that so? Noel McInnis Yes, Kevin, the more I understand how I see myself, the more I understand of how I see others and of how they see me. Juracy Marques Right, Noel, then it is learning process... Noel McInnis Juracy: rewarding others is essential to the shaping of their behavior. Yet is forgiveness for the purpose of shaping someone else's behavior, or for the purpose of shaping my own? Juracy Marques Would you say that talking about self-understanding is better than using self-perception? Noel McInnis I like to start with self-perception, because that is the ground of all self-assessment. Noel McInnis I cannot understand myself to be other than my self-perceived assessment of myself. Noel McInnis Chaya Douglas enters the chat room Noel McInnis Hello Chaya. Juracy Marques Noel, the most important aspect of it, is the purpose of shaping my own behavior, in connection with my feelings and ideas. Noel McInnis We're having a heated disucssion of the relationship between forgiveness, locus of control theory, and attribution theory (among other things). Chaya Douglas Hello. Sorry to barge in. have just come in. I'll listen. Noel McInnis There's no "barging in" here, just arriving in the middle. Juracy Marques But we go through different levels of experience, sometimes we are not affected as much, others we are overwhelmed and need sometime to recover and return to our desired wellbeing. Noel McInnis The difference tends to be proportionate to the intensity of our respective experiences. For example, dealing with murder is far more intense than dealing with an insult. NOTE: Although this session continued, the chat log unexpectedly ends here. Furthermore, some statements about feedback and locus of control are mysteriously absent from the above log.