UNTYING EMOTIONAL KNOTS Friday, May 21, 2004 - 4:00 p.m.PDT The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Leslie Kadis, Noel McInnis Leslie Kadis enters the chat room Hello Noel Noel McInnis Hello there. I knew you were logged in, and waited for you. Leslie Kadis Sorry -- just getting used to the chat room format. I've appreciated your thoughtful responses Noel McInnis Thank you. Appreciation makes all the difference. Leslie Kadis I'll sit back and wait for others to sign in. Is there a specific topic for today? Noel McInnis (There may be no others.) I mostly respond to the questions and thoughts of others. Noel McInnis What has helped you most in the class thus far? Leslie Kadis "forcing" ,me to reconsider the terms and language I use in my reconciliation work. Contrary to Dr Luskin's point of view I think forgiveness, as a self rather than other oriented process, is an essential precursor to reconciliation because -- I'll be back in a moment -- dont want to keep you waitimg too long because of my two fingered typing Noel McInnis No problem - I'm a two-finger typist myself. And I agree with you that forgiveness is self-oriented rather than other-oriented. Leslie Kadis ...because to engage the other person we can't be emotionally tied up., and I've come to think that forgiveness is about untying the emotional knots. Noel McInnis That's how I see it also, Leslie. The choice is to be (i.e., forgiving), or knot to be (i.e., unforgiving). Leslie Kadis Then I am not clear because Dr L makes the point many times that forgiveness is not reconciliation, or vice versa Noel McInnis How will what you have learned change your reconciliation work? Leslie Kadis I don't yet know. Yet I am curious about the practice of forgiveness. It is relatively straightforward (at least in theory) for an individual, but do you have any experience -- or references -- about facilitating forgiveness in an interpersonal setting? Noel McInnis It's O.K. not to know. Yes, I do group forgiveness coaching and workshops quite regularly. Leslie Kadis group as in couples or families, or as in groups of individuals? Noel McInnis All of the above . . . and mostly groups of individuals. Noel McInnis The couple I work with most regularly is me and my wife. :) There are few training grounds for forgiveness that equal that of a marriage. Leslie Kadis Given the way the word forgiveness is generally used I imagine you spend considerable time educating? Noel McInnis Yes, I have been a learning facilitator (I don't like the word "teacher") for 45 years. Leslie Kadis Here is an example [from her psychiatry practice] -- two brothers, ages 40+, heirs to a very substantial company, slated to share ownership and and management of responsibilty have a a history of grieveances from birth, grief narratives worthy of steinbaeck, and a prize to the winner of substantial money. They are engaged in a winner take all battle as crazy as that seems. more to follow. Noel McInnis Dr. Luskin says that forgiveness is possible without reconciliation. In your estimation, is reconciliation possible without forgiveness? Leslie Kadis that depends on the operational definition of forgiveness. To engage in a reconciliation process I have to keep myself separate enough to hear -- not agree with- the other person's grievances, to acknowledge the pain I've caused and to consider the value in working together. I think that encompasses forgiveness. Noel McInnis By the way, I used to live South of San Francisco, which is much closer to Aptos than my present residence, Wilsonville, Oregon. Leslie Kadis Where is Wisonville? Noel McInnis 10 miles south of Portland. Noel McInnis I formerly lived in San Carlos, and before that in Marin County for a couple of years . . . and before that, all over the U.S. Leslie Kadis Any thoughts about working with warring siblings? Noel McInnis We'll have to defer that discussion until later, as I have to move on to my next commitment now. Thanks for being here. Leslie Kadis Thank you