Monday, May 31, 2004 - 7:00 a.m. PDT The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Courtney Hill, Noel McInnis Courtney Hill enters the chat room Good Morning Noel. Happy Memorial Day. Noel McInnis Thank you. I wasn't sure anyone would show up on a holiday - forgot it was Memorial Day when I scheduled the chat. Courtney Hill This may actually be a great time for some people -- not having to work around so many schedules and obligations we normally have on non-holidays. Noel McInnis Good point. What would you like to discuss? Courtney Hill The first reading stated that no research has been done on the impact of forgiveness and health, however Dr. Luskin (if I'm remembering correctly) stated that there is obvious benefit for forgiveness and the impact of health. What is your take on this? Noel McInnis The other reading suggests that there are numerous health benefits of forgiveness. Unforgiveness affects the immune system, circulatory system, nervous system, etc. in harmful ways. Courtney Hill I work in the medical field and numerous physicians state that lowering anger and resentment should most definitely lead to better cardiovascular health, keeping in mind that other factors are controlled as well. Courtney Hill How much do the personality types of individuals play on forgiving and capacity of forgiveness? Noel McInnis There are definitely correlations between personality types and forgiveness. My wife and I are both quite easy-going, and don't have a lot of forgiveness issues. "Go-getter" types tend to have more forgiveness issues. Courtney Hill Does intelligence play a role in forgiving? Are more intelligent (educated) individual at higher capacities for forgiving? Noel McInnis Insofar as cognitive approaches to forgiveness are effective - rational-emotive therapy being an example - intelligence is definitely a factor. Courtney Hill You said you were easy-going, what is your level of forgiveness? Noel McInnis My forgiveness caseload is fairly current - i.e., no backlog - I'm dealing with present issues as they come up. Noel McInnis It took me about 10 years of intentional self-forgiveness work to get there. Noel McInnis My "technique" was introspective writing about my own dynamics of forgiveness and unforgiveness. The best of it will eventually come out in book form. Courtney Hill I picture the forgiveness cycle as literally a circle. Is there really a starting place of forgiveness or should one just begin in the easiest step for themselves (ie. recognizing what was painful). Courtney Hill I look forward to reading it when it comes out -- any title yet? Noel McInnis My own starting place is my unwillingness to feel stressed. Title: Forgiving Myself: Being Who I Am by Forgiving Who I Am Not (Possible alternate subtitle: The Ultimate Perceptual Makeover) Courtney Hill Your unwillingness to feel stressed? Can you please explain? I like the title options -- the first one very dynamic. Noel McInnis Whenever I feel stressed, I immediately intend to be at ease by releasing it. Accordingly, I identify the thoughts that give rise to it and do a perceptual makeover of them via whatever technique seems most pertinent at the moment. One technique is to make an appointment with myself to deal with the thoughts later, and set them aside for the time being. Once they have been set aside, when the appointment time comes they don't seem to be nearly as stressful. Noel McInnis All perception is chosen, and subject to makeover. Noel McInnis Just knowing that makes a difference in itself. I can always ask, "Why am I choosing this perception? Is there another that would serve me better? Noel McInnis I was first introduced to this possibility by A Course in Miracles. Courtney Hill I agree with stepping back from a situation to get a different perspective before responding. Is this what you are referring to? It's similar to the saying "take a break from an argument before you say something you shouldn't or really don't mean." Noel McInnis Yes. "Taking a break" is an excellent description of the process I'm talking about. Courtney Hill A Course in Miracles? I'm assuming this course is spiritual in nature. What is your understanding of the role of spirituality in forgiveness -- I know what the book/readings say. Noel McInnis A Course in Miracles is a three-part book, around which thousands of study groups have formed worldwide, and it is definitely spiritual in nature. Its consistent focus is on forgiveness. Noel McInnis Insofar as religion is devisive, it actually promotes unforgiveness. Insofar as spirituality is inclusive, it supports forgiveness. Courtney Hill I agree with the religion comment about being exclusive and promoting bigotry and superiority. This a key component of the holocaust. The question that is on the front of the Sunflower book -- Would you forgive a dying Nazi if you were a prisoner in a concentration camp? -- The answer is very multi-dimensional. Courtney Hill I'm not sure I would be able to forgive that quickly. I haven't gotten very far in the book (Sunflower), work was extremely busy last week. Is the question an immediate one - or one that allows the prisoner to work out forgiveness over time? Noel McInnis Yes. Unforgiveness and forgiveness are both multi-dimensional in virtually every instance - and nowhere more so than in situations like the Holocaust. Courtney Hill I have taken several classes on Jewish history and the Holocaust -- many with intrigue and amazement at what this religious group has suffered and what I found was that many were able to forgive over time the soldiers and Nazi they had direct contact with during that time, but still unable to forgive (maybe recover from is better suited here) the leadership. Courtney Hill ...for what they were put through. (didn't finish that sentence) Noel McInnis Yes. Ultimate perpetrators are the hardest to forgive. Courtney Hill Do you have a limit of forgiveness or have you reached a place where forgiveness can be achieved no matter what the situation. (I'm still working to reach that place.) Noel McInnis I have only one "hard case" at present - meaning an issue that is ongoing - and that is the Bush administration's handling of economic, environmental, and international affairs. It is motivated by a very hard-line, black-and-white, unforgiving outlook on life overall. Courtney Hill Political forgiveness -- does this separate on party lines or can you see both sides of the spectrum. Noel McInnis Politics is, by both definition and purpose, unforgiving. Most political energy is focussed on wrong-making. Courtney Hill When dealing with the international affairs, I think a very hard-line approach to terrorism is appropriate, do you not? Noel McInnis As I thought we might have learned in Viet Nam, a hard line toward terrorism isn't implemented very effectively via warfare, which is like using a shotgun appraoch where a rifle is called for. Noel McInnis Targeting terrorists would be far more effective than targeting entire countries. Courtney Hill We've touched a nerve. Sometimes terrorism is melded into the workings of an entire country. Noel McInnis Which is what makes the shotgun approach so appealing. Courtney Hill Have you forgiven the terrorist for 9-11? I've never thought about this before now? Noel McInnis Since our hour is about up - and I have a next commitment - it is best we address 9/11 when we have more time. Courtney Hill Sure, thanks for the chat. Have a great week. When is the next chat? Noel McInnis Probably next Friday at 4 p.m PDT Courtney Hill Okay, talk to you then. Noel McInnis Thank you for showing up. Courtney Hill No problem. Bye! Noel McInnis Stay in the grace!