Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 7:00 a.m.PDT The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Vivian Ho, Noel McInnis (who apologizes for being tardy), Shari Palmer, Kathie Smith, Chuck Volpe Chuck Volpe What time zone are you in? We seem to be the only two logged in. Shari Palmer Eastern, I am in Florida on the Gulf of Mexico. Shari Palmer How are things in South Africa? Chuck Volpe I'm in South Africa and its raining at the moment. I have to say that the course has opened up some deep wells of feeling within me. The Internet in a sense provides the opportunity to communicate on this level with, I think, less risk. Shari Palmer I love it though, I think they are correct in saying that blocked feelings result in illness. Chuck Volpe Things are good here. It's a great country with many exciting developments on the social level, particularly in bringing the First and the Third World together. in many ways I think we are providing an example for the rest of the world to follow. Shari Palmer Yes, it is exciting. The US also has great disparities between peoples. Ghetto dwellers, disenfranchised youth, escalating prison population, indebted lower class etc. Chuck Volpe you're quite right about blocked feelings. What is the word Luskin uses to describe forgiveness? Was it lightness or freedom? both would the appropriate. Shari Palmer I've decided that I am not going to let anyone dampen the spirit of joy I received recently with my cancer-free diagnosis...this course is so appropriate for offloading junk and commiting to not picking up more. Chuck Volpe So many questions arising one's mind when one lives in a society with great inequalities. when one buys a new car one thinks of the many people who are hungry at that moment. Without realising it one carries this burden constantly. The black people have a concept they call "Ubuntu". it means something like connectedness, the connectedness between oneself and all other people. That is, once humanity is a function of the input we get from the rest of society. It follows that we have a responsibility to people who have nurtured our humanity. The upshot is that black people here share the little they have with their neighbours. Chuck Volpe I would imagine that the experience you've gone through must have heightened your appreciation of life and especially the simple things. Shari Palmer I once knew a woman who took the biblical injunction to give 10% and used the idea with everything she had. Her washing machine, her car, her home...looking for opportunites to use her things for other people. She was a very happy woman. Chuck Volpe I think it's true that giving is far more life enhancing than taking. Unfortunately the societies we live in preach the opposite. Chuck Volpe did you see the poem Noel sent to me about comparing oneself with others? Shari Palmer Which one, say a line if you can. Chuck Volpe I'l try to cut and paste it - Chuck Volpe I'd like to stop comparing myself with other people. Comparing has become a heavy burden on my soul. I can always think of ways that I seem to be “better” than another, but others always seem to be “better” than I in some ways, too, and the “better” seemed in others seems more certain. Comparing always leaves me feeling a deficit. I can always find at least one person “better” than I in any given quality, yet this is never fully compensated by my estimate of others who are “not as good” as I. I feel each quality begin to die in me whenever I compare it with that quality in others. There are so many more of others than of me, that comparing myself to them is a game I only lose. I would no longer overlook that other people are for loving, however they may be, not for comparing. Shari Palmer I do recall. I think what happens is that some of the ideals we pick up as children and which even our parents and teachers and coaches can foster need to be discarded or reworked once we reach autonomy. It is just that as children we are so open and really take it in and it becomes a part of our inner workings. Shari Palmer He has a special gift and eloquence. Chuck Volpe Quite true! I've always had the feeling that I need to be really good that whatever I do. It puts an enormous burden on one. Even when one does perform well, is it ever good enough Shari Palmer My best guy friend is the same. He came here and we went out on a schooner and he was so angry at himself because he could not steer it perfectly. I said, What have you done it all of five minutes now! Shari Palmer I used that time and date he suggested, I am certain we are here at the right time. Chuck Volpe I have three sons and the youngest behaves in the same way. Even though he is two and three years younger than his brothers, he always feels the need to to be able to compete with them. When he falls short he is quite unforgiving of himself. could it be genetic? Shari Palmer I think it could be passed on. He is also, I am sure, taking in everything daddy is doing. Competence is especially a trait that both men and women want men to have. Chuck Volpe the time here is 4:44 in the afternoon. Shari Palmer It is10:35 am here. Shari Palmer I totally idolized my father. He was a Navy pilot and could do everything well. I do feel a certain disillusionment when men are not intelligent and sure of themselves as a result. Chuck Volpe by the way, if you were thinking that I'm a very fast typist, it's not the case. I am using Dragon Dictate - a programme which translates dictation into typing. Even though I've only just started using it, and need to fine tune it, it is a lot faster. Shari Palmer I would love to have such a program. I want to test my skills as a creative writer. I think of such funny things all the time and I think I could be a fine novelist. Chuck Volpe I like intelligence in women as well. Not necessarily only intellect, but emotional intelligence. After all what is a person really other than a mind? Chuck Volpe I love reading. Do you have good stories to tell?. Shari Palmer I do have some funny stories. Florida is full of unusual people and places. It is easy to find your self in a humorous or odd context. Chuck Volpe I read a novel recently by Carl Hiaasen about Florida - it was very very funny Kathie Smith enters the chat room Shari Palmer That makes three. Hello, Kathie! Kathie Smith Hi, Chuck Volpe hi Kathie! Shari Palmer Carl Hiassen is a funny writer and has at least a dozen FL novels. Chuck Volpe Kathie. where I you calling from? Kathie Smith Hi I must figure out how to do this. Is the chat over? I mean except for you two? Shari Palmer No one but us came. Kathie Smith Not even Noel? Chuck Volpe this reminds me of little bit of Waiting for Godot - the Theatre of the absurd play about two tramps waiting for Godot who never arise - and who may not even exist. Shari Palmer I called the teacher on the telephone and he is on his way! Kathie Smith I'm in California. Where are you? Shari Palmer I found him in the white pages on my computer. Kathie Smith Good for you, Shari. Very resourceful. Shari Palmer I am on the Gulf of Mexico side of FL near Sarasota, a place the Pres often visits. Chuck Volpe I'm in South Africa, the city called Port Elizabeth on the east coast about one and half million people Shari Palmer So Africa always looks so intriguing and beautiful. Kathie Smith This is what I call geographic diversity. Kathie Smith I live in Sacramento, where Arnold Schwarzenegger often visits. Shari Palmer I love Ah-nold. Kathie Smith Ahhh, I don't. Chuck Volpe you'd love it if you visited. game farms, beautiful beaches and friendly people. Shari Palmer Perhaps I shall some day. Kathie Smith Yes, especially now that I know someone there! Noel McInnis enters the chat room Kathie Smith Hi Noel! Chuck Volpe Hi Noel! Noel McInnis Sorry I'm late. I had an unexpected change of Saturday morning routine that completely spaced out the chat. This is great. There are three of you. Often there are only one or two. Shari Palmer Hi! Hope you don't mind I called. I figured if I found you in a public database, it wouldn't be tooooo intrusive. Noel McInnis Not al all, Shari. Very enterprising, in fact. I commend y'all for proceeding in my absence. Noel McInnis So what's uppermost on our minds? Kathie Smith I'm not completely here, as I didn't get to bed until close to 2a.m. Noel McInnis I can't remember the last time I was completely here . . . :) Shari Palmer You all need cell phones like mine. I can schedule events in it even months ahead to ring an alarm. Noel McInnis That's the first convining argument I've heard for having a cell phone. Chuck Volpe the course so far has been extremely stimulating. It takes a bit of getting used to talking about one's inner feelings, and also the unusual medium of the Internet. On the other hand, one feels a little more secure in speaking about these personal things. Noel McInnis Yeah, Chuck, it gives one a chance to think them through. Shari Palmer I love the challenge of seeing what becomes an entanglement and why Kathie Smith I've realized since I started the course that my biggest grudge is against myself for things not done or achieved. Shari Palmer I think sometimes we have faulty memories about all the circumstances surrounding past choices, Kathie. Noel McInnis Kathie: I've made a pact with myself to live my life in such a way that I will again have to ask, "What if I had been real?" Chuck Volpe Noel, would you agreethat the mechanism behind this course is the creation of a new habit or habits with regard to the way we see setbacks? Kathie Smith This memory is pretty accurate and plays in my life every day. Shari Palmer Do you mean authentic? Noel McInnis Chuck: Precisely! I call the creation of new habits of seeing things a "perceptual makeover." Chuck Volpe does that mean a makeover in the way we perceive things? Noel McInnis Yes! A makeover of the process of perception. Kathie Smith So, in my case (not to make this too personal), I would look at my failings and rename them? Or is that too simple? Noel McInnis One of the best ways to rename my "failings" is to call them "could have" rather than "should have." "Could have" honors my power of choice. Shari Palmer I have little tricks I use to help "get it right". Noel McInnis Little tricks such as? Chuck Volpe clearly, we always see things from a single perspective, namely, our own. similarly other people see things from a single perspective, which is their own. our way and their way need not be the same. I think the trick is simply to realise that they are many ways of seeing things and therefore, never to believe that one's own way is 100% accurate of the events as they occurred. Noel McInnis You've got it, Chuck. Everything I consider to be so is implicity prefaced with "in my opinion . . ." Shari Palmer I had an especially poisonous boss. I could see that right away, so I decided to take little "snapshots " of him when he was showing his humanity. Laughing on the phone with his wife, telling a joke, whatever...against the day...that I knew I would be sorely tested to recall him as good or likeable. Shari Palmer These were mental snaphots. I built the most extensive album I could. Noel McInnis That's an excellent trick, Shari. At the core of perceptual makeover is a re-selection of what I remember. For instance, happy childhoods and unhappy childhoods are merely alternate recourses to early memory. Kathie Smith My biggest grudge against myself dates back 40 years when I got pregnant just before I was to go off to college. Long story short, I never made it to college. I had a good career, one that a lot of people would envy. I have smart and educated friends but I also have this dirty little secret and it erodes my self-confidence every day. It's difficult to tell even you about it. Noel McInnis It is also forgiving to tell us about it. Noel McInnis Self-forgiving. Kathie Smith But I figure you will now think less of me. Shari Palmer No, way. I got date raped and college and that is how I got my son! Noel McInnis Now there's a blessing in disguise, Shari. Noel McInnis So long as you think less of you, Kathie, nobody else has a chance to think otherwise in your perception of them. Kathie Smith Not sure how to recast that memory. Chuck Volpe Kathie. can I be honest with you - really honest - I think much more of you. The event you describe could have happened to absolutely anyone; in fact it happens every day. it's no big deal. but it takes courage to speak about something you are concerned about Kathie Smith Thanks, Chuck. Noel McInnis I second Chuck's sentiments. Kathie Smith I tell very few people. Noel McInnis When it makes no difference WHETHER OR NOT you tell people, you will have completely forgivien the fact. Kathie. Shari Palmer Re-casting, can you think of people you met, blessings that happened because your path went the way it did? Chuck Volpe I would think your son is the best outcome of that event. Kathie Smith Yes, Shari, and I do that. Still, it bothers me. I can't fully explain it. Noel McInnis All that is presently good in my life might be otherwise had any one thing in my past been otherwise. Kathie Smith Shari, did you finish school after you had your baby? Shari Palmer I got a few certifications in CadCam and Engineering Drawing and Paste up and Layout for design. Shari Palmer Life is what happens when you are making plans! (not original to me) Noel McInnis John Lennon said that, Shari, and he died proving it. Chuck Volpe Noel, I was telling Shari earlier about the profound impression made by the poem sent me on comparing oneself to others. we always seem to be measuring ourselves against some unfavourable standard instead of just being ourselves. does a dog or table apologise for being the way it is? we would not expect it to even if it could. so so why do we feel the need to do so? Noel McInnis It's a habit we are taught. Kathie Smith Not a happy habit. Noel McInnis The habit is called "wrong-making". Shari Palmer I think Noel, to unblock the perfectionistic streak should purposely cut paper on the side of a desk and not use a scissors, etc. for one hour a week---just to see how the other half lives! Noel McInnis Now there's a metaphor! Shari Palmer Button your shirt one button off, put on two unmatching socks and go down to the corner for coffee. Kathie Smith Sometimes I would take college classes. Often I would sit there thinking...most of the people in this class want my job, so why am I here. It would help in the moment...with my feelings of inferiority. Kathie Smith Shari, you make that sound like it's not something I do every day! : ) Shari Palmer Obviously if you have your job, you are well qualified. Noel McInnis The word "perfect," by the way, as used by Jesus ("Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect") in the Aramaic which Jesus spoke means "all inclusive." Noel McInnis I dare say, Kathie, that hjad you gone to college you may have found yet another reason for not feeling that you are enough. Not feeling enough is the real problem. Kathie Smith Aha! Shari Palmer Another think to think! College back then was without computers, we were using slide rules in physics just a year or two before. Your old college would not be of much use in today's world. Chuck Volpe I have harboured a serious grudge against my father for over 40 years, for beating me with anything that came to hand by way of teaching me "good manners", "good behaviour", and the like. it wasn't setting much of an example was it? of course, I did provoke him but ultimately laid all the blame on him. Shari Palmer That hurts my heart, Chuck. Children are such precious innocent people. Kathie Smith Yes, that is difficult to hear. Noel McInnis As hard as this may be to perceive Chuck, that was your father's misguided way of loving you from a consciousness that loathed itself. All attack of others is a projection of the attacker's self-loathing. Shari Palmer Your father was showing you his belief that this is a hard world, and WATCH OUT! it will hurt if you are not perfect. So he thought he was breaking you in to make you tough. Chuck Volpe Our society would not tolerate physically assaulting an adult, yet assaulting a child is considered good parenting by some Kathie Smith My children's father used to beat me up, rape me. Once he strangled me until I blacked out. But I hold a bigger grudge against myself for not getting my degree. Shari Palmer I found similar inconsistencies in what I created a grudge over, Kathie. Noel McInnis Kathie: are you willing to make that past tense (i.e., "held" a bigger grudge, etc.) by the end of this course? Kathie Smith That is one of my goals, Noel. Chuck Volpe I am pretty tough so I suppose he did a good job. The problem is the price. however I do take responsibility now for my present feelings and for the first time I am feeling in control Shari Palmer I think this is a huge break through to let you out of the prison, Chuck. Kathie Smith Chuck, I have to say, no child can provoke an adult to hit unless the adult is willling and ready to step over that line. Noel McInnis Make it a heart-felt intention. Heart-felt intentions evoke miracles. Kathie Smith Ok, I make it a heart-felt intention. Chuck Volpe thanks guys Noel McInnis All of us can forgive more than any of us! Noel McInnis For each of us. Shari Palmer I agree with Kathie. Chuck Volpe Noel, your insight and that all of us know more than each of us all that all of us can forgive more than any of us, is a simple one and really profound. Noel McInnis It's the way all forgiveness works. Shari Palmer We can help each other find our way. Kathie Smith I'm afraid the concept is a little vague to me, Noel. Can you elaborate? Noel McInnis It's like this, Kathie. All of us know more than any of us - even than those who have a college education. Accordingly, since all of us know more than any of us, all of us know more about forgiveness than any of us, including specific instances calling for forgiveness. Shari Palmer Our sum total of life experiences Noel McInnis All of us know more than any of us about each of us, so long as we are willing to be open to one another. Kathie Smith So that is the importance of this class. In real life, people are less forgiving, I find. Kathie Smith Me included. Noel McInnis Perhaps, Kathie, this class is the real life. Kathie Smith Now there's a perception to ponder. Noel McInnis Which is why I have chosen it to be the reality of my life. Noel McInnis REAL life begings to happen when we awaken from the reality with which we have been programmed by parents, schools, churches, bosses, etc. Chuck Volpe Kathie, when Socrates (not Soccerates - the Greek god of football) went to the oracle at Delphi, he was hailed the as the wisest men in Greece. He protested saying: "But I know so little". the oracle replied: "therein lies your wisdom". in other words, never, never believe that what you have in your head is anything other than wisdom of supreme as that of any other person. Shari Palmer Head "tapes" can be changed. Shari Palmer I do guided imagery and have a collection. If they wish something well for me and I cannot connect with it. I say, I will change to be able to accept this blessing. Vivian Ho enters the chat room. Noel McInnis Hi, Vivian! Kathie Smith Hi Vivian Vivian Ho Hi, Good morning Chuck Volpe I I would say "good afternoon" but I expect its morning for you, Vivian. Kathie Smith Vivian, did you bring coffee? I could use some. Vivian Ho Yes it is, I think I've missed a good portion of this discussion. Wish I had some as well - coffee! Shari Palmer My soy milk is not cold yet:( Noel McInnis Vivian: what went before will eventually be posted as a chat log -the longest chat log I've ever posted, by the way. Vivian Ho Okay - great. Thx. Am a novice at this. Shari Palmer I thought global health philanthropy sounded fascinating. Noel McInnis What's uppermost on your mind re forgiveness, Vivian? Vivian Ho That's a nice way to put it. It has its moments depending on what the issues are; but generally I am deeply aware of the huge chasms between needs and resources Chuck Volpe Isn't life wonderful and full of surprises. Even 10 years ago who could have imagined that we could share our experiences in this way. This so much wonder and amazement to life, and yet we find time to focus on the negative - that is itself is a wonder and amazement. Kathie Smith So true, Chuck. Noel McInnis Yes, Chuck, now all of us can REACH farther than any of us. Shari Palmer I play euchre on line and have live partners from around the globe. I love it. Vivian Ho I have not had a chance to peruse the emails posted or materials. For now, I am curious about the application of forgiveness among various Eastern (Buddhism) and Western constructs (Christianity). Noel McInnis There is a possible opportunity for you to become the expert on Eastern forgiveness perspectives, Vivian. I'm not aware of much that has been written on the subject, other than what is implicit in the writings of the Dalai Lama. Shari Palmer I remember your initial post about how the self is considered in a different way in east and west, Vivian. Noel McInnis The Eastern mind perceives the self more as part OF the whole than apart FROM the whole. Kathie Smith Is compassion the same as forgiveness? I think the Dalai Lama teaches compassion, right? Noel McInnis Yes he does. And without compassion, forgiveness is impossible. Kathie Smith So they are not the same but are complementary? Noel McInnis Forgiveness is applied compassion. (There are also other applications of compassion.) Vivian Ho Funny you mention that about the Dalai Lama; I have read several books (eg: the Tibetan book on living and dying by Songgal Rinpoche) about Tibetan beliefs, and heard the Dalai Lama speak in Hawaii. Perhaps I need to consider what Western perspectives have to compare and contrast this with. Part of the whole, and application is more community-minded than self-directed. Chuck Volpe I hope that I don't offend anyone by saying that in my view it is best not to approach life via religion or any other construct. although these can provide some guidance, all we really have to do is to get in touch with our own feelings and learn to trust ourselves. A basic humanity provides us with the best possible guide on how to live. very often we seek answers in the middle and far distance, when they reside right here inside ourselves. Isn't it the same with forgiveness - we seek it everywhere and from everyone except from ourselves. Noel McInnis I agree, Chuck. Truth is beyond all constructs. Kathie Smith And constructs are merely illusions... Noel McInnis Yes, Kathy, the stream of consciousness poured into concrete molds. Noel McInnis Mouldy consciousness. Shari Palmer Christianity says "pray for your enemies" "you will be forgiven as (in the same way) as your forgive and Leave your gift at the altar, and go and be reconciled to your brother, then return to the altar Chuck Volpe Trying to encapsulate life in a structure is is like trying to preserve the beauty of the flower by putting it into a box - it simply dies. Kathie Smith The structure does allow for a coming together, though, that is often not possibly as we go about our daily business. Noel McInnis Chuck: I liken it to the endeavoer to freeze-dry the trajectory of a butterfly. Chuck Volpe Well put! Vivian Ho I should clarify - this is not about deeply religious beliefs for me, as I tend to distinguish religious and spiritual energy. However, I see religion as one facet that strongly divides or coalesces (sp?) people of all races and genders together. Simply put, it can be the cause of tremendous chasms Noel McInnis In my experience, Vivian, what spirit tends to unite, religion tends to divide. Kathie Smith Look at the chasm that has developed between Christian and Muslim. How sad. Shari Palmer II think that religious traditions---being ancient---should reflect the universal human truths and can instruct us from the "collective consciousness" Noel McInnis Kathie: It hasn't developed so much as it has been there all along, and is just now becoming visible. Vivian Ho I agree Noel. I also see the force of nature Catholicism has been in shaping countries throughout Asia Pacific (eg: Philippines) Kathie Smith I hope the visibility offers the possibility of change. Chuck Volpe Guys, I have to go. the sun is going down here and I need to prepare for dinner. I have thoroughly enjoyed interaction - thank you all and especially Noel for facilitating this experience. Shari Palmer Bye, Chuck nice to talk with you Kathie Smith Great chatting with you, Chuck. Enjoy your dinner. Noel McInnis Bye, CHuck. Vivian Ho Have a good weekend. Noel McInnis Not just the possibility, Kathie, the probability of change - via the observer effect. Vivian Ho Schroedinger's Cat? Shari Palmer I know most Muslims to be delightful people and I love their wonderful mediterranean cuisine! Noel McInnis Yes, Vivian, a la the way the qauntum mice play. Kathie Smith What is Schroedinger's Cat? Vivian Ho Quantum physics whereby the observed changes via observation; I think he was referring to waves and particles. (Dancing Wu-Li Masters) Shari Palmer I loved the Dancing Wu-Li Masters! Kathie Smith Is that change what you see and what you see changes? Noel McInnis Yes, Kathie, all of us see more than any of us, and each new seeing changes what is seen. Shari Palmer The attention of the observer somehow changes the movement of the particles and the observer inadvertently becomes a part of the dynamics. Noel McInnis The best metaphor I know of the observer effect is that of a blind man touching a snowflake to see what it feels like. The blind man is each of us. The snowflake is life. Shari Palmer Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm In the scriptures it says, " in Him we live and move and have our being ". . . God in all, us in God, God as us, all connected. Noel McInnis God in us, as us, is us. Noel McInnis We are the faith OF God, even when we don't have faith IN God. Kathie Smith I'm going to write that down. Shari Palmer Yes, that is the higher self that Chuck was feeling would inform us without resorting to failed religions. Shari Palmer Skip the muddied interpretations and go right to the Source. Noel McInnis Yes, Shari, by BEING the Source. Vivian Ho Is there and has there been research on forgiveness around the higher self? Noel McInnis Please be a little more specifc with your question, Vivian. Vivian Ho I don't know more to be specific. Our higher self is a source of guidance; and I was wondering if clinical studies on forgivenessness have been done as relates to the higher self; or meditating as a way towards greater forgiveness, etc Kathie Smith Funny you should mention meditating. I was just thinking about that. Noel McInnis That helps, Vivian. And I will address your inquiry via my response to your self-introduction. The chat format is too limiting for that. Shari Palmer Meditating should allow the inner self to instruct, give clarity, insight----since healing and well-being are our natural state---guide us there. Vivian Ho Ok. Great. Noel McInnis Shari's reference to "our natural state" is what I call "the higher self." Vivian Ho I like that. Yes, meditating and/or whatever it takes to get to our natural state of balance. Shari Palmer This world is full of stimuli. Noel McInnis Our natural state is the one we were born with - gently clasping in our hand every finger put there, regardless of race, gender, etc. Kathie Smith This has been great. Lots to think about. I must feed the cat and get some coffee. Kathie Smith Bye all. Noel McInnis I have the same agenda as well, Kathie. Bye! Vivian Ho Bye Kathie. I would like to do the same. Thank you Noel. Have a great weekend Shari. Shari Palmer Bye to all!