Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 4:00 p.m. PDT The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Noel McInnis, Elizabeth Stern Elizabeth Stern enters the chat room Noel McInnis Hi, Elizabeth. Liz Hi, where are you going on your trip. Noel McInnis Washington, DC - Northern Virginia area, to give some speeches on forgiveness. Liz Fun, but maybe humid? Enjoy. Are we discussing sunflower today? Noel McInnis Yes. What would you like to address? Liz I just can't believe I've never read this book before. It is really fascinating. I can't even begin to put myself in his position. Noel McInnis Nor can anyone else who hasn't been there or lived with survivors. Noel McInnis Do you know any survivors? Liz I live in a very Jewish world. I myself converted to Judaism about 12 years ago and am now about to home school for Hebrew school my daughters. And I have known survivors, but still...very difficult to empathize. The power of endurance. Liz Actually I know more kids of survivors than I know their parents. The children really go through a whole host of issues by being raised by people who lived through the Holocaust. It would be interesting for me to have a discussion with them about forgiveness. Noel McInnis One of the greatest stories enduring the Holocaust is virtually unknown, and deserves to be read by everyone who reads Wiesenthal's book. I'll introduce it to the class later. Noel McInnis It's a story of forgiveness, which is probably why it is so unknown. Liz interesting. I'm thinking about what I would have done in Wiesenthal's position... Liz I probably wouldn't have even lasted that long in the room Noel McInnis Why not? Liz Would've been too scared somebody would miss me and then take revenge for my absence. Noel McInnis Ahhh! Survival instinct. Which is what prevailed in almost everyone involved. Liz But I can see why he was so drawn to the story, it would have been so unique to have the chance to see the other perspective Noel McInnis The "other perspective" was essentially "when you've seen one Jew you've seen them all" so that Wiesenthal stood for all Jews. As I understand the situation, it was from the perspective of being unable to speak for all Jews that he responded as he did. Liz And then I can certainly see the need to share with his friends his dilemma/torment. It was refreshing to learn that, even in the face of so much abuse, people still tried to maintain their own perspectives. I'm thinking of the religious student later in the story. Liz Yes, I know he was thinking of himself as an individual. Sad that the SS man couldn't understand that. Noel McInnis Another perspective on the Holocaust you might want to read is Bruno Bettelheim's 1960 book, The Informed Heart. Liz Would you have revealed more to the mother of Karl? Noel McInnis Insofar as I am able to imagine myself in Wiesenthal's situation, I would have been just as forgiving toward her as was he. Noel McInnis I don't blame parents for the shortcomings of their children. Noel McInnis I give credit as credit is due, yet without blame. Liz Yes, I suppose. I never doubted Karl's story so I didn't feel the need to check facts with his mother. And I do realize that, for the most part, that a childhood has somewhat little effect upon one's choosing to join a supremely popular group later in life. Liz Is pity a popular feeling? For parents such as those of Karls? Noel McInnis Such things have far more to do with the culture and its current collective experience, which affects parenting as well. Liz Bolek said that, because Karl attempted repentance, that he deserved the "mercy of forgiveness." But repentance isn't a prerequisite. Something desired, but not required? Noel McInnis Given that pity borders on sympathy which in turn borders on empathy, I suspect that compassion for Germans by both Jews and non-Germans concerning the Holocaust is quite rare. Liz yes Noel McInnis As I understand the situation from Wiesenthal's perspective, Karl was not repenting, he was merely looking for absolution. Liz p. 82 talks about repentance. Also...At no time in the book was God really mentioned as a possible source of forgiveness. I wonder if God was also absent for Karl. Noel McInnis There seems to be no evidence that God was present for Karl. Liz He calls for God, but doesn't really ask God anything. Possibly he has been so doctrinated that Hitler is the replacement. He seems so lost. Noel McInnis Karl represents the epitome of "lost." And the presence of God in the Holocaust was largely doubted by many of the Jews afflicted. Liz Well, that's a given. That is something I can relate to. Jews always struggle with the concept of God. It's the definition of Israel. That's what I like about Judaism. That was my "aha" moment when studying, when I finally said, "This is how I fit into this picture." And it's funny...at the moment of my conversion, the small ceremony, the ritual dunking, I felt a connection to the history of the Jewish people, as "my history." Noel McInnis Jewish history is a variation on the theme of everyone's history. Liz from lost to found for me Noel McInnis As all conversion is meant to be. Noel McInnis "Amazing Grace" by any other faith is just as sweet. Liz Yes. Comforting, isn't it? In the face of our earthly experiences. Oh, how do I get a transcript of last weeks chats? I couldn't attend. I have to go in a couple minutes to pick up my youngest... Noel McInnis The transcripts are on the Discussion Board (the bottom-most threads). Noel McInnis I've enjoyed our exchange. Liz Ok, thank you. Sorry I can't stay longer. Have a nice trip. Noel McInnis Stay in the Amazing Grace!