Thursday, Sept. 30, 2004 - 7:00 a.m. PDT The following log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Noel McInnis, Heidi Park, Evelyn Taylor [Evelyn Taylor enters the chat room] Evelyn Taylor Good morning, Noel. Noel McInnis Good morning, Evelyn. Noel McInnis I apologize for being slow on the uptake. Evelyn Taylor No problem, it's much earlier for you. Evelyn Taylor So far I am delighted both by your responses to everyone and the groups' willingness to be open with each other. Many useful tidbits are emerging. Noel McInnis I'm usually up around 5 a.m. I spend the first several hours of my day writing. Evelyn Taylor I wish I was so disciplined. I have several works "in the works" but always find too many things/people pulling at me to have a set routine. Noel McInnis Yes, Evelyn, this is the most vital set of online students I've experienced thus far. Noel McInnis That's why I get up early - before the world begins to impinge on me. Noel McInnis (And I sometimes nap during the day.) Noel McInnis What would you most like to discuss this morning? Evelyn Taylor Listening to the tape assignment, I began to wonder if speaking out immediately (or even later) when an hurt occurs and voicing what it did to us can begin the forgiveness process or does it just create more unrealistic expectations? Noel McInnis Saying something like, "here's how I feel about that" opens up the space for some immediate resolution of hurt. This action alone makes a difference in at least the person who is thus disclosing - which is where all forgiveness takes place in any event. Noel McInnis Forgiveness always shows up as a disclosure of truth. Evelyn Taylor I guess that was my conclusion also. "Getting it off one's chest" without seething and agonizing over it for a period may make healing easier/faster. However, I must admit if the initial hurt was bad and then the perpetrator said basically, I don't care or agree that what I did was wrong, I would be severely hurt. Noel McInnis And letting that be honestly known is the initial act of willingness to be forgiving. Noel McInnis It shows that YOU care - and again, that is where forgiveness begins. Evelyn Taylor Another point on the tape was to practice on little hurts such as "Wow, look how rude that person is," but not how you would approach it. Do I then say to myself, "Oh well, he must be having a bad day" or what? Noel McInnis Why not just be grateful that you are sensitive to rude behavior - thereby sensitizing yourself not to do likewise? [Heidi Park enters the chat room] Noel McInnis Welcome, Heidi! Heidi Park Sorry I got here late. How long does the chat room class last? Noel McInnis It lasts an hour or so. And sometimes goes on after I have to leave. Heidi Park I see. Noel McInnis Its OUR chat, not mine. Evelyn Taylor Noel, I agree that recognizing rudeness is a good think and not repeating similar actions, but I think I would tag that person as rude without even knowing them. That doesn't seem too forgiving. Noel McInnis Which is why I ask what wants to be discussed rather than setting an agenda. Noel McInnis The forgiving distinction is to tag the behavior as rude rather than the person. Practice is what makes that distinction perfect. Evelyn Taylor Ah, practice, practice, practice. I will try it starting today. Evelyn Taylor Quite a distinction, I might add. Heidi Park I'm coming in here sort of unprepared. What are we talking about? Noel McInnis We're talking about how to move immediately into the mode of forgiveness upon being hurt. Noel McInnis The only preparation required, Heidi, is what's uppermost in your heart and mind re forgiveness at this moment. Evelyn Taylor Hi, Heidi, I have asked Noel if immediately voicing my hurt might speed/aid forgiveness. Heidi Park Thank you, I was wondering. Noel McInnis By the way Heidi, please forgive me if I sometimes spell your name Heidy. My wife name is Heidy (with a "y"). Heidi Park That's fine. Heidi Park So are you saying it helps or not? Noel McInnis The more quickly we can take a step toward forgiveness, the less unforgiving we become. Noel McInnis And that helps a lot. Heidi Park I agree. Evelyn Taylor One pet peeve I have is when someone speaks to me quite sharply, say through clenched teeth and when I ask them not to speak to me in that tone, often the reply is, "I wasn't being sharp." "HA!" says me inwardly and there is no forgiveness there. I need to work on a better way to react to that. Noel McInnis Voicing one's hurt without expectation of any particular outcome other than what comes out of us is what counts most. Noel McInnis Instead of labelling the tone of their statement, just say, "When you speak like that to me I . . ." Evelyn Taylor The typical response would be, "Like what?" Noel McInnis "Like you just did." Evelyn Taylor Chuckling. Evelyn Taylor I see I have lots to learn in easing up. Noel McInnis It's basically an Aikido move with their energy. Evelyn Taylor This course is already turning out to be quite valuable to me. Heidi Park That kind of "I" statement seems to work in American culture Heidi Park But somehow, when I talk to people in Korean in that way, I seem to get weird look from them. Noel McInnis Welcome to the international club. I often get weird looks from those who hear me talk that way in English. Heidi Park You do. Heidi Park That's comforting. Evelyn Taylor It seems like an excellent way to defuse a situation, Noel. Noel McInnis Yes. And I keep reminding myself that it's not about the response I get, it's about maintaining my own integrity. Noel McInnis Forgiving personhood consists of living the truth of my integrity. Noel McInnis Its a way of being that creates its own way of doing. Evelyn Taylor I have a problem in NOT getting a chance to have the last word. SO I will have to fight myself to accept that I am the important one to please. Noel McInnis An excellent beginning, Evelyn. Once YOU’VE gotten your last word, YOU are complete. Nobody else has to get it. Evelyn Taylor Aha--a light bulb moment. Heidi Park I'm sorry, what's a "last word?" Evelyn Taylor A chance to state your final feeling. Noel McInnis "Having the last word" is an English idiom that means. . . O.K., Evelyn got it! Heidi Park In a conversation with many people, I assume. Noel McInnis Also in conversation with just one other person. Heidi Park Thank you. Noel McInnis It represents the desire to be right and have others acknowledge that you are right. Yet the person with whom we most have to be right is oneself. Noel McInnis Forgiveness is first and foremost being in right relationship to myself. Heidi Park That's true, Heidi Park but I struggle in a different way. Noel McInnis Tell us about your struggle. Heidi Park I struggle to get out my last word, but often not very successful in getting it out in first place, and then Heidi Park When it comes out, it's not completely what I really meant to say. Heidi Park I guess, in those cases, I struggle with forgiving myself to go through that little situation. Noel McInnis CAN you forgive yourself for having to struggle? Heidi Park I guess. Evelyn Taylor Heidi, are you not saying what you really meant because you do not want to offend? Heidi Park When the language fails me continuously, it accumulates. Heidi Park Well, that's part of it, but it's usually timing, and forming the sentence right. Noel McInnis Forgive yourself for having to struggle in between the times that you are struggling, as well as when it is happening. Heidi Park Well, Evelyn Taylor I sometimes say, "Give me a minute so I can say this clearly." Heidi Park That takes some guts. Noel McInnis Yes, Heidi, forgiveness is a courageous act. Noel McInnis It helps sometimes, Heidi, for us to learn how to form our sentences from our heart. Heidi Park That seems to be very true. Heidi Park I was reading the course package, and there was some mention about Type A personality. Noel McInnis You mean the go-getter, do-it-now type? Heidi Park I don’t think so. It was the type of personality that has harder time forgiving....narcissist... Heidi Park For me that personality seems to be personality with low self esteem. Heidi Park I came out of my own country to face all the troubles. but for so many years I've been here, that kind of struggle accumulated to the point, Noel McInnis Ah, yes. SelfISHly interested rather than self-interested in maintaining one's internal integrity. Heidi Park I get to struggle with some sort of low self esteem when I have to face people from different cultures. Heidi Park I can let the struggles, and little hurts go very easily, but I find them leaving little pieces in my heart somewhere. Noel McInnis That's where the little pieces belong. They go there to be loved away. Noel McInnis When we are able to experience ourselves as a person rather than a nationality, race, gender, age, etc., we relate as equals in esteem. Heidi Park What do you mean by that? Evelyn Taylor Do you mean by loving yourself more? Noel McInnis Yes, Evelyn. Noel McInnis As persons we are equal, however non-equal we believe ourselves to be in form. Heidi Park I don't quite get it. Could you say that somewhat straight forwardly? Noel McInnis You and I are equal, Heidi, as members of the universe (or, if you prefer, in the eyes of God). Heidi Park I can take that. Noel McInnis The secret is to take it and then LIVE from it. Heidi Park That's hard. Heidi Park But I guess I can try to remind myself that. Noel McInnis Esteem all persons equally as persons, however difficult it may be to esteem some of their behavior. Forgiveness distinguishes between what people are and what they do. Evelyn Taylor I agree with Heidi in that when dealing with someone who is so self-centered they put others down to inflate their own ego, it is hard to swallow Noel McInnis SO why even try to swallow it? Noel McInnis Just say to yourself, "No thank you." (It doesn't have to be said out loud.) Heidi Park Distinction between what they are and what they do helps. Evelyn Taylor So do you say to put out of your mind rather than trying to make a point? Noel McInnis To thine own self be true, and thou canst not then allow anyone else to be untrue to you. Noel McInnis That's the other side of Shakespeare's coin of fidelity to self. Heidi Park Thank you, Noel and Evelyn. I kind of have to go. Sorry for coming late and leaving early. Evelyn Taylor So instead we should say (inwardly) I can't accept that statement/behavior and just move on, right? Noel McInnis That's almost it, Evelyn: Say to yourself, I DON'T accept that, and move on. Noel McInnis What other people think of me is ultimately none of my business. Evelyn Taylor Ah, a major difference there. Bye, Heidi. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace, Heidi. Noel McInnis Well, Evelyn, it's time for me to go as well. This chat session will be on the discussion board by tomorrow. Evelyn Taylor Thank you, Noel. Very good hearing your information. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace!