Friday, Oct. 1, 2004 - 4:00 p.m. PDT The following log has been edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Katherine Jones, Peggy Martin, Noel McInnis, Alia Michaels Katharine Jones enters the chat room Hello - is there anyone there? (sounds like a seance....) Noel McInnis Hi, Katharine Alia Michaels enters the chat room Noel McInnis Hi, Alia Alia Michaels Hi, Noel. How are you today? Noel McInnis I'm just as wonderful as you are. Alia Michaels How'd you know? Noel McInnis That's my standard answer to the question - let's others esteem me as much as they esteem themselves - which is the most the one really esteems another in any event. Alia Michaels Are we the only two? Katharine Jones We must be the ones most obsessed with punctuality Noel McInnis No, I'm the one obsessed. I've been in the chat room for 15 minutes. Katharine Jones yes, but that's because you're the tutor - you have to show up early to set up the slide projector etc Noel McInnis Preceisely :)) Noel McInnis Yes, Alia, we're it. Katharine Jones Everyone's going to have the advantage over me, because I haven't read yesterday's chat, or done much of this week's reading Noel McInnis Not necessarily, Katherine. Knowledge can get in the way - hence the Zen concept of "beginner's mind." Alia Michaels I read through the chat from yesterday morning. And I was wondering if we could continue the discussion about moving quickly into forgiveness upon 'being hurt'. It would take a lot of self-awareness to move quickly. Noel McInnis Yes, it takes a lot of PRACTICED self-awareness before it comes naturally. Alia Michaels Or alternatively, the other issue that's been brought up in the online discussions is to get the point of not getting hurt when something happens... the impersonal aspect. Katharine Jones yes, but then don't you have to watch out against just being in denial? Alia Michaels yes, I think there's a tightrope to walk between denial and impersonality. Noel McInnis Alia: I tend to prefer the term "impartiality" to impersonality. Noel McInnis Even more PRACTICED self-awareness - what Buddhism calls "mindfulness." Alia Michaels And, Noel, what do you mean by PRACTICED self awareness? (I, too, am behind in my readings and hoping to catch up this weekend.) Noel McInnis One has to practice at becoming self-aware in order to be in self-command. Noel McInnis That's the first principle of self-dominion. Noel McInnis Mindful self-awareness requires permanent practice. Unlike knowing how to ride a bicycle, you can forget how to be self-aware if you stop doing it for awhile. Alia Michaels I just looked up the impartial vs. impersonal... and I think I get why you prefer the former... in that, we're not denying our feelings but not biased one way or the other... i.e. not holding on to them. Is that why? Noel McInnis Yes, Alia. Impersonal” sounds life indifference. “Impartial” means treating all alike. The rain that falls on the just and the unjust isn't impersonal, it’s impartial. Alia Michaels OK, thanks for that clarification. Alia Michaels But sometimes self-awareness isn't enough. There's the next step which is... deciding how to act on the awareness. Noel McInnis Yes, Alia, which is the purpose of self-awareness (without which there would be no known basis for a decision). Alia Michaels So, part of the issue is the action following an event which provokes some self-awareness. I guess I'm getting a little stuck in that being self-aware doesn't necessarily mean 'right action' follows. Noel McInnis Right action tends to follow whenever self-awareness recognizes action that doesn't work. Right action is the ultimate purpose of self-awareness. Alia Michaels Within the context of our discussion, particularly about forgiveness, we're assuming that people want to take right action based up 'spiritual' values, but I imagine there are a lot of successful people out there that are very self aware, but still tied into ego-based decisions. Katharine Jones You mean they don't carefully think things through, but they still intend to do the best thing for themselves? Noel McInnis As long as I have an ego, my ego has to pass on the decisions. Katharine Jones Or no, you mean they have thought it all through, but decide to do something selfish? Noel McInnis Katherine: all of the above. Alia Michaels ...the selfish... Alia Michaels Isn't that where impartiality should come in... that the ego doesn't necessarily make decision based on what's best for it, but best for the good of all? Noel McInnis I dare say that Adolph Hitler was absolutely convinced that he was doing the best of which he was capable. Noel McInnis Yes, Alia, the ego can be trained to serve the greatest good. Alia Michaels so that's the next stage after self awareness... Noel McInnis Since it can't be eliminated, the ego had best be trained. Alia Michaels That's part of the reason that Adolph Hitler was so powerful... he was convinced and was able to convince others that his way was the best. Noel McInnis Neither of our candidates for President thinks he has anything less than the best in mind. No one does. Even those who commit suicide think it’s in their best interest to do so. Peggy Martin enters the chat room Noel McInnis Welcome, Peggy. Alia Michaels a different forgiveness issue? Do people commit suicide because of lack of forgiveness for themselves and others? And then the aftermath, of guilt for the survivors? To forgive themselves for allowing the suicide to occur? Peggy Martin Hello Alia. I'm here now in the chat room Alia Michaels Hi, Peggy. Peggy Martin What a question to get as soon as I enter the room... Alia Michaels sorry... Noel McInnis You never know what you're coming into the middle of, Peggy. Sort of like being born . . . :<)) Peggy Martin Ain't it the truth ... Noel McInnis Most people commit suicide as an act of violence against someone they haven't forgiven. And sometimes the one they haven't forgiven is themselves. Alia Michaels ...or powerlessness against a situation that they cannot resolve. Which gets back to being a victim that we discussed last week. Peggy Martin In the case of teen suicide, do you think that abandonment issues may play a big part? Noel McInnis Abandonment issues quite often, yes. Also the feeling of helplessness to cope. Noel McInnis Alia beat me to the latter point. Alia Michaels In your seminars do you have people that are trying to forgive people who killed themselves? If so, what are their main issues? Noel McInnis Their main issues are usually either abandonment or feeling responsible. Peggy Martin We had a foster child until the end of 1997. She reunited with her birth family in 1999 and about a year later(October 2000) I got a call from her birth mother that she had committed suicide by hanging herself. She was all of 13 years old. But what a history. She had been removed by social services when she was less than a year old. Then the mom in her adoptive family died by the time she was five. She certainly suffered from attachment disorder and I can't say her suicide surprised me, just how soon it happened. Alia Michaels So sad... Peggy Martin very much so. I felt it was inevitable but of course we mourned nevertheless. Noel McInnis That must have been a shock, Peggy. Peggy Martin A shock in some ways but given her history, not an unexpected outcome Noel McInnis Katherine, have you looked into the material on restorative justice? Katharine Jones Only briefly. We had a short course on that when I was teaching, and I remember that most students were quite skeptical. Alia Michaels What were they skeptical about? That it was possible? Katharine Jones Yes, they didn't think it could work. Most of them seemed quite bloodthirsty and definitely thought retribution was the order of the day - and remember we don't have the death penalty any more in England. Maybe my college just attracted particularly right-wing students! Noel McInnis Restorative justice doesn't always work - and it tends to work better than retributive justice. Peggy Martin Having come late to this chat, I do not know what restorative justice is. I have a notion, but a quick definition might help me know if I am right, I do know that retributive justice is like the biblical "eye for an eye" Noel McInnis Restorative justice varies from doing community service to replacing/rebuilding damaged property, and otherwise making amends that serve the injured parties or community. Peggy Martin Thanks, that is about what I thought. For example, it would be sentence someone like Fastow to doing community service. Alia Michaels Just brainstorming on ideas: How would restorative justice affect our legal system? and the prison population? Would it help the rehabilitation process? Alia Michaels Perhaps help those that commit crimes become more self aware? Alia Michaels ... and, hopefully, get some counseling. Noel McInnis Restorative justice would be a transformation of our legal system, lower the prison population, and reduce recidivism. Alia Michaels Have there been studies that support that statement? Noel McInnis Making amends is the bedrock of the self-awareness development in the 12-step program. Noel McInnis For more on restorative justice go to www.restrorativejustice.com and links therefrom. Alia Michaels thanks Alia Michaels Noel, do you do any work with the prison population? Alia Michaels I imagine there are a lot of forgiveness issues there. Noel McInnis Restorative justice creates economic value, whereas retributive justice is extremely costly by comparison. Peggy Martin But think about how many highly paid prison guards in California would lose their jobs ... [Ooops! I apologize for missing Alia’s question about prisoners. I got engrossed in the following conversation between Katherine and Alia. - Noel] Katharine Jones Retributive justice is only expensive if the means of exacting retribution is sending someone to prison. The pure eye-for-an-eye route is much cheaper. So is cost something we should factor in when deciding what is justice? Alia Michaels But, then, what value can be placed on someone's life or reputation or other intangible? How are the sentences determined in restorative justice? Sometimes, to me, they seem to be more a slap on the wrist, but that may be my limited perception. Katharine Jones 'The public' in general often seem to complain that non-custodial sentences are not enough punishment - whether we think it's right or wrong, there does generally seem to be a perception that justice should include a measure of punishment Katharine Jones and other thought - how are the sentences determined in retributive justice anyway? Someone commits armed robbery, and gets the 'maximum sentence' ie is sent to prison for (say) 30 years - is that in fact adequate retribution? Or too much? Alia Michaels Perhaps, what's needed in a combination of both with the custody time focused on therapy, counseling or socialization issues. Alia Michaels ... or even forgiveness issues... ;-) Katharine Jones I think the combination thing is what does happen in prison, but it's a bit hit and miss as to how much counselling etc you get in prison - depends on which exact prison you end up in, and if it's somewhere like Strangeways or Wormwood Scrubs, then there may not be too much rehabilitation etc available Peggy Martin Part of the socialization could be mind-body work like meditation, yoga, qi-Dong, anything that gives inmates a chance to reflect. Alia Michaels ...and we're back to self awareness... Noel McInnis What's required is a paradigm shift in mass perception. Short of that, there will be no change in any of our systems. Peggy Martin It was reading in my local (Hayward, Ca) paper about a program for yoga in the prison and the inmates really like it. Noel McInnis And my paradigm shift of choice is forgiveness. Alia Michaels Ah, ha! Peggy Martin agreed Katharine Jones sorry, I think my time is up - people are getting hungry round here and waiting for me to cook dinner! talk to you all next week.... Noel McInnis See www.forgivenessday.com - one of the forgiveness projects I've co-created. Peggy Martin I will look at that. Alia Michaels OK, Noel, I'll check it out.... thanks, I'm off to my next ToDo list item. Bye! Noel McInnis I've got another commitment as well. It's been a substantial chat. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace! Peggy Martin Goodbye until next time