Thursday, Oct. 7, 2004 - 7:00 a.m. PDT The following log has been edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Katherine Jones, Noel McInnis Noel McInnis Hello, Katherine Katharine Jones hello. I thought I was really late and was fretting about what I had missed Noel McInnis Nope! We're it, so far. What would you like to discuss? Katharine Jones OK, well there's something I want to plunge in with right away. I've been thinking more on that stuff I put in my post on the discussion board, and also read the first bit of 'The Sunflower'. ... Katharine Jones I get how you can implement forgiveness on a personal level - with the stuff in Dr Luskin's book.... Katharine Jones ....but I can't find how forgiveness should fit into society as a whole. I mean, in terms of framing and then enforcing laws Noel McInnis The latter requires a paradigm shift in human consciousness overall. It cannot be accomplished within the present consensual trance. Noel McInnis Restorative justice is a glimpse at that possibility. Katharine Jones As a society we agree that it is not right for someone to kill another person - we make a rule, a law about it. If the law is broken, well, say the relatives and friends of the dead person might forgive the murderer for his action - each makes their own decision on this. But what about society's response as a whole? If there is no punishment, don't we have the problem that there is no public condemnation of an unacceptable act? How can you have restorative justice for the taking of a life? Noel McInnis Concerning your last question: When it is asked by enough people as if there is an actual answer, such an answer will be found. Noel McInnis As for punishment, there is nothing about forgiveness that suggests that people should not "pay" for their harmful behavior. Noel McInnis Forgiveness is about the mind/body/emotional set in which justice occurs. Katharine Jones But then what is 'justice'? Noel McInnis What does "justice" mean to you? Katharine Jones ooh, you Socrates, answering question with question! Hang on a minute, I'm thinking.... Katharine Jones I guess I imagine it as some kind of balance. Wrongdoing throws the scales out, justice is some action which will put things back in a fair balance. But this doesn't deal with the issues of what counts as 'wrong', who decides how badly it shifts the balance, and what is required to put things back in balance Katharine Jones And also, it doesn't answer the question of where forgiveness fits into it Noel McInnis At present, neither justice nor truth is a consideration in most legal proceedings. It's all about what can be proven or disproven, and often in total disregard of the truth. Noel McInnis Forgiveness is not presently a social value. Katharine Jones But isn't it the case that the reason why legal proceedings focus on proof/lack of proof is that provable truth is the only kind of truth you can deal with in the real world? isn't this exactly why we stumble to define 'truth', because in many matters different people will have different versions of 'truth'? Katharine Jones coming back to what you say about forgiveness not being a social value at the moment, how do you think it could be incorporated into the legal system? Noel McInnis Legal proceedings tend to be concerned with one thing only: winning (or not losing) by whatever means a win (or not losing) may be accomplished. Noel McInnis Forgiveness cannot begin to be incorporated into the legal system until it is fully incorporated into social consciousness. The legal system reflects social consciousness, and seldom does much to change it. Katharine Jones So are you saying that as a society we should formally forgive people who break the law, civil or criminal? Noel McInnis No, I am saying that until there is a shift in consciousness there is no basis for understanding such a “should”. Katharine Jones But what is the shift in consciousness you refer to? maybe this is where I'm stumbling Noel McInnis The shift of consciousness I am referring to is comparable to the shift in consciousness that has ended much (though far from all) racial segregation. Noel McInnis Which was an exception to the general rule that change does not come about via the legal system. Noel McInnis However, the change came about via the Supreme Court only because the Supreme Court ruled that society had changed its consciousness on the subject. Katharine Jones You mean, if someone does something to harm/annoy you that would amount to a tort or a breach of contract, you keep in mind forgiveness as a possible response, and if someone commits a crime, then society via the criminal courts keeps in mind forgiveness as a possible response? Noel McInnis Forgiveness of persons is always appropriate. Ignoring torts and breaches of contract is seldom if ever appropriate. Katharine Jones So are you saying that the legal system can and must exist independently of issues of forgiveness? That forgiveness is only something that can occur at a person-to-person level? Noel McInnis We are living in a time when most people have yet to raise the question of forgiveness. This question will have to be asked for a generation or more before answers are forthcoming. This course is part of the dawning of humankind's living in the question of forgiveness. Katharine Jones OK, so do you mean, that right now society is only at the stage where person-to-person forgiveness is the thing to practice, but once everyone is able to do this, then we can start refining our legal system? Noel McInnis I am saying that presently there is no public consciousness of forgiveness as anything more than an individual and interpersonal value. Humankind's social consciousness is still more or less at the level of "an eye for an eye." Katharine Jones You mean things have to change 'from the bottom up'? Noel McInnis I am saying that society will change as a consequence of a bottom to top upwelling of changed consciousness by a critical mass of its individual members. Noel McInnis So-called "reform" merely gives a new form to existing values. Noel McInnis Forgiveness is a "transform." Katharine Jones OK, I get that. But what should we do about laws and legal procedures in the meantime? Noel McInnis As best we can. Noel McInnis I have devoted my life to working with individuals, not with systems. Noel McInnis With one exception - when I was an educational reformer, and only until I realized that what I wanted was transformation and that systems cannot be transformed until consciousness has been transformed. Katharine Jones But is it not worth trying to 'reform' laws, prison regimes, etc? Noel McInnis It is always worth trying to make harsh systems less so - which is the most that reform can accomplish. Katharine Jones I want to ask a religious question. Do you think that's why Jesus concentrated on dealing with individuals and didn't try to overthrow the Roman state? Noel McInnis Seek ye first the kingdom of God (i.e., transform consciousness) and all these things shall be added unto you. Noel McInnis That was exactly was Jesus was about. Noel McInnis He was not about replacing one tyranny with another. Katharine Jones but it's taking a long time, isn't it? And in the meantime there has been the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, and many things just as evil Noel McInnis Do you remember The Who's song, "Won't Get Fooled Again?" It was about this same thing. Noel McInnis As Christopher Fry said in his poem (from "A Sleep of Prisoners"): "it takes so many thousand years to wake -but will you wake, for pity's sake." Noel McInnis We are in an era of the first crack of dawn of such an awakening. Katharine Jones Is it like a geological era that could last millions of years? Noel McInnis Millions of years in the context of the opening of the movie 2001, when the ape first discovers how a stick can be used to club another ape. Several millennia in the scope of human history. Noel McInnis Our era represents the end of our awakening's beginning. The consequent transformation can be quite sudden - in decades rather than millennia. Katharine Jones That is more hopeful! Noel McInnis It is VERY hopeful. We have been born in time to be the missing link between the apes and so-called "civilized" beings. Katharine Jones Yes, 'civilised' is a much-misused word. Have you ever listened to 'In Our Time' on BBC Radio 4? It is about the history of ideas, and it discusses things like that Noel McInnis No, I wasn't aware of that program. PBS' "Connections" is similar. Noel McInnis And on our note of hope I must resume my other endeavors on behalf of the awakening. Katharine Jones OK, have a nice day!