Thursday, Oct. 14, 2004 - 7:00 a.m. PDT The following log has been edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Katherine Jones, Noel McInnis Katharine Jones hello. is it just us again? Noel McInnis Hello, Katherine. Yes, it's just us. No one else is logged in. Katharine Jones I haven't done any of this week's reading yet, I'm afraid. Noel McInnis Not to be afraid. Katharine Jones And, I haven't even done any postings on last week's discussion threads. But I did have some thoughts on them, so maybe we could discuss them? Noel McInnis Sure. Go ahead. Katharine Jones OK, well I got tangled up in thinking about how the dying Nazi is 'repentant' and 'asking for forgiveness' - and so it started me thinking about religious ideas on repentance, atonement, and the contrast between what Josek says and what Bolek says.... Katharine Jones So I wanted to try and define those terms a bit, and I made a bit of headway (I think)... Katharine Jones Repentance is understanding when you have done something morally wrong. This should be a first step in forgiving yourself for what you've done, so that then you're in a better position to atone, by deciding on a suitable future course of action which will seek to 'redress the balance', to see that justice operates in the world.... Katharine Jones Being forgiven for what you did by the victim should be irrelevant both to repentance and atonement Katharine Jones And finally.... Katharine Jones I pondered over 'absolution', which I've always taken to mean 'being forgiven by God' - is this in fact the same as forgiving yourself? I think it was Ann that suggested this to me in her posting. Noel McInnis You are correct in perceiving repentance and atonement as utterly inner work. Repentance and atonement have nothing to do with others' opinions, feelings, etc., only one's own. Noel McInnis Likewise, absolution is also an inner experience, not something added from outside. One must be ready to experience absolution in order to "receive" it. Noel McInnis ALL experience takes place within the one who is experiencing. Noel McInnis That is the existential first premise. Katharine Jones Ah, so, have I totally misunderstood what is going on in Catholicism all this time? It always seemed really false that you could say a few prayers and then the priest would tell you God forgave you for your sins. Noel McInnis Here's the point: when the prayers are sincere, the priest's pronouncement is sincere. The pronouncement that God forgives is always sincere, because that is always the case. Whether it is truly "received" is, however, entirely up to the recipient. Katharine Jones Do you think that God exists outside of human beings? Noel McInnis God exists within human beings and human beings exist in God. It's all inside. Noel McInnis There is no outside within God. Inside/outside is the illusion of duality. Noel McInnis Which, by the way, is a useful illusion if you don't want to be run over while crossing the street. Katharine Jones So is 'God' a way of expressing the interconnectedness of everything in existence? Noel McInnis Yes, Katherine. My favorite definition of God is that of a somewhat renegade Catholic, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin: God is "interiority". Noel McInnis Operationally speaking, God is **IN**volved (interior to) all that **E**volves (exteriorizes its interiority). Katharine Jones So, coming back to forgiveness, when you feel a need to confess and ask for absolution, what's happening is that part of you knows you've done wrong, and you want to move on to put things right (atone), but first you have to forgive yourself for what you did so that you can do that most effectively? But then where does feeling guilty fit in, and is it a bad thing? Noel McInnis The other side of the coin, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" is "Forgive them, Father, for they do not what they know." Guilt is the nagging knowledge that one has not done what one knows. It is knowledge of one's shortcomings for which repentance and atonement (exteriorized as "amends") has not taken place. Were there no guilt, there would be no knowledge of the requirement for repentance and atonement - and THAT would be a "bad" thing. Noel McInnis The only "amends" that the dying Nazi officer could make was to acknowledge that he had done something contrary to what he knew was right. Noel McInnis And he was seeking external absolution, rather than confirmation of his internal absolution (which is all, by the way, that a priest has to offer - confirmation of absolution, not the experience itself). Katharine Jones So the kindest thing Simon could have done for him would have been what Josek said he would have done - told Karl straight out that it was not up to him (Simon) to forgive, that Karl had to look within himself? Noel McInnis Had Wiesenthal been able to say that with utter compassion for the man's plight, the man might have "seen the light" for himself. Noel McInnis Compassion is the only experience of mine that may invoke a compensatory experience in another. Katharine Jones There's something else you raised in last week's discussion threads that I want to discuss.... Katharine Jones You talked about 'redeeming investment in a grievance'. does this imply that sometimes it is worthwhile not to forgive? You keep your anger alive to spur you on to do constructive things to prevent such wrongdoing occurring again...... Katharine Jones Or, to seek the 'legitimate' punishment of the wrongdoer (leaving aside for the moment who decides what is 'legitimate')..... Katharine Jones ...which is what Simon Wiesenthal was doing? Is this the kind of thing you were meaning in Week 1 when you asked about 'constructive anger' (which I don't think I really got at the time)? And, is forgiveness independent of this, ie can coexist with constructive anger? Noel McInnis I see no virtue in keeping anger alive, only in using its energy for lively purposes that ultimately dissipate the quality of anger. Katharine Jones so, you end your anger - and forgive - as soon as you can. But to make worthwhile the time you necessarily did spend angry, you do something positive afterwards? Noel McInnis Constructive and destructive are ways of using anger. Anger of itself is neither. My emotions are whatever they are, independent of what I do with them. The choice of what I do with my anger is not dictated by the anger itself. Noel McInnis It's all about doing something positive with the anger itself. There is no "afterwards" when you are living the "now" of present experience. Noel McInnis The secret of forgiveness is to live in the near and how of present moments only. Katharine Jones well, that is what I signally fail to do at present! This morning I was fretting - yet again - about where I have failed in my life and how I have fetched up in America with no career and no clue about what I should be doing.... Noel McInnis I know what you mean. When I was asked as a child what I wanted to be when I grew up, the only thing I could say in all sincerity is "unusual." Katharine Jones Obviously I don't forgive myself for many many things. Is this what a 'lack of self-confidence' actually amounts to? Noel McInnis Lack of self-confidence essentially represents lack of self-trust. Noel McInnis My own self-trust began to develop when I forgave myself for not trusting myself. Noel McInnis The beginning of all forgiveness is the forgiveness of oneself for being unforgiving. Noel McInnis Again: God is interiority. All things take place within. That, in a nutshell, is my "systematic theology." Noel McInnis However, is better called "systematic cosmosophy" because the latter term denotes "knowledge of one's place in the cosmos". Katharine Jones Lucky for me that I stumbled across this course. Where I fit into the world is another thing that I often fret about Noel McInnis I have composed a little song that relates to such "fit"ness: Noel McInnis I dont want to figure myself out (repeated three times) 'Cause there's no doubt, Instead of out, It's a whole lot more fun to be in. Katharine Jones what's the tune? Noel McInnis It's one I made up - and recorded on a CD that just became available last week. Noel McInnis The CD is entitled "The Five Questions You Meet on Earth - and Five Ways to Respond" Katharine Jones I suppose as it's already gone 10, now's not the time to ask what those 5 questions are? Noel McInnis The CD is all about forgiveness, although it doesn't use the word all that much. Katharine Jones Is it mentioned on your website? Noel McInnis I will eventually have the CD on a website. The 5 questions: Identity, Integrity, Reality, Appreciation, Release. Noel McInnis And it's time for me to go. Katharine Jones Well, if the CD becomes available for sale, you can be sure I'll buy a copy. Speak to you soon! Noel McInnis Stay in the grace!