Tuesday, March 1, 2005 - 7:00 a.m. PST The following chat log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Robert Keaton, Noel McInnis, John McCleary, Rita Murphy [Robert and John enter the chat room] Robert Keaten Hi, Noel Noel McInnis Hello, Robert and John. Noel McInnis Your arrival is timely, as I barely preceded you. Robert Keaten I'm going to struggle to be fully involved this morning - we had a major snowfall last night, the man who usually digs me out is out of town, and my snowblower died this morning soon after I started to use it. Noel McInnis Thank you for being willing to transcend such a major distraction. Noel McInnis There's an element of forgiveness in all such willingness. Noel McInnis Just as there is an element of willingness in all forgiveness. Noel McInnis This chat session is for the mutual exploration of your primary forgiveness concerns. What might these be for you? Robert Keaten As I indicated in previous communications, my primary concern regarding forgiveness on a personal level has to do with forgiving myself when I do something wrong or stupid. I am going to try what you suggested with respect to my misbehavior years ago. Noel McInnis I suggest you change your reference frame from "wrong" and "stupid" to "miss-taken". When film-makers make a miss-take, they don't berate themselves for it, they do another take. Noel McInnis You might also reframe "misbehavior" as "error in judgment". Noel McInnis What we call things has a lot to do with how forgivable we perceive them to be. Robert Keaten I agree that terminology is important - I'll see what I can do along those lines. Noel McInnis I always look for the most judgment-free descriptions of otherwise "loaded" situations. Noel McInnis For instance, perceiving "agitation" and "turbulence" rather than "anger" or "violence". John McCleary Hello and good morning/afternoon (it is 3:16 pm in Wales). Unfortunately I have to leave in a few minutes in order to go to a meeting about my daughter's progress at her college. I enjoyed your description of your weekend, Noel. Good luck with the snow, Robert. My son wishes we had more snow in Wales. My main preoccupation with forgiveness is to create the optimum conditions for taking important decisions affecting the whole family. The story of the two wolves, coupled with the idea of locus of control (as interpreted by your poems, Noel) was extremely thought-provoking. Robert and I seem to share a need to forgive ourselves. I think perhaps there is a danger in how far we take responsibility for everything we do. I agree with you both on terminology. Please forgive me now if I disappear from the conversation in order to go and fetch my son from school. I hope the rest of the chat continues as well as it has begun. Can I access the chat room in a few hours, so that I can see what you have all been saying? Noel McInnis This chat session will be posted on the Discussion Board tomorrow, if not earlier. Robert Keaten Noel, I have a question about how I can best help someone else movee toward forgiveness. This is not academic for me, since I have members of my parish who could use such help, and they might be willing to listen to me if I know how to help. Noel McInnis One way of helping them might be to take them through Dr. Luskin's H.E.A.L. method once you are yourself familiar with it. Noel McInnis Any method for making over perception - including meditation and prayer - is a valid approach to the elicitation of forgiveness. Rita Murphy enters the chat room Noel McInnis Hello, Rita. Robert Keaten I saw your mention of that somewhere, but I don't think we've been assigned that part of his book yet, and I was late receiving the audio tape and haven't listened to all of it yet, so I'm somewhat in the dark on H.E.A.L. Noel McInnis The darkness will be dissipated in the course's fulness of time. Rita Murphy Hi, this is Rita here. Having to do this at work as I was denied access at home. Noel McInnis You must work fairly close to home, Rita. Rita Murphy Yes, about 5 minutes but I'm delighted to be a part of this as I've never done this before! Robert Keaten Hi, Rita. From my experience with another AllLearn course, difficulty in access is not uncommon. Noel McInnis Robert: Only rarely, however, is the problem of access at AllLearn's end. Noel McInnis The "subject" of our chat is whatever is just now uppermost on your minds re forgiveness. Robert Keaten Noel, I would be interested in your thoughts on why I find it relatively easy to forgive others - and incidently my wife of 43 years agrees with that - but find it much harder to forgive myself.. Noel McInnis Do you remember the song, "You always hurt the one you love?" It tends to be those with whom we are closest that tend to get to us. And nobody is closer to me than me. Everywhere I go, HERE I am. Noel McInnis With no one else's miss-takes do I have to live as closely as with my own. Rita Murphy Wow. This is something else. Tried posting to the discussion board last night but lost it all as I tried to post it. For the second time. The gist of it was that I'm discovering how much this all ties in together with Buddhist philosophy, teachings and meditation practice. One thing I'm finding now especially with this course is the importance of recognizing intention of the offender. Yesterday as a slight happened at work where I was "passed over" in problem solving. Hurt feelings on my part then rising anger and resentment. I had to leave the area for a few minutes to gather my wits and as I tried to make myself see the persons involved did not intend to hurt, it was quite a stretch as I basically believe in respecting others. The problem a shirnk told me from long ago is that I expect to be treated as I treat others. Hmmmmm. Isn't that the golden rule? The issue for me here is at what point does one let "stuff" slid off one's back and when does one make the offender aware of the impact of their thoughtl Rita Murphy -lessness? Robert Keaten I understand - yet I am very close to my wife and love her very much, and still find it easy to forgive her. Noel McInnis The secret, Rita, is to make the offender aware in a way that serves his/her own self-interest. Rita Murphy You are to be envied, Robert. Robert Keaten Thanks, Rita, but I need to learn how to do it when I'm the one I need to forgive. Noel McInnis Perhaps, Robert, you have a higher standard for yourself than for anyone else. Robert Keaten There may be t truth in that - I tend to be something of a perfectionist when I do something. Rita Murphy It seems I've always been on a self-improvement campaign...the result of my German Irish-Catholic upbringing? While it hurts to have my faults and foibles pointed out, in the long run I am usually grateful as I never intend to cause another person pain. The times when I've brought this stuff up to the offender in a "are you aware that..." statement the defensiveness of the other gets to me and I stop trying as I did with my husband. Noel McInnis In the Aramaic language with which Jesus said "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect," the word we translate as "perfect" means "all-inclusive." Hence: Be ye all-inclusive, even as your Father in heaven is all-inclusive." Robert Keaten Rita, I think we do have a responsibility to anyone we care about to tell them the things they need to hear, even if they have trouble hearing them. If it's done in a caring manner, sometimes it can really help them Noel McInnis I sometimes engage the perceived offender with a question: "Why do you suppose I feel badly when you (say/do) that?" Noel McInnis That way I own my feelings rather than attribute them to the other's responsibility. Rita Murphy Forgiveness of self is and always has been my biggest challenge, Robert. That's where the Buddhist thing comes into play for me. Meditating is really hard for me but it's helping me see that I'm OK just where I am...that we're all on this journey. Practicing loving-kindness meditation is tough, especially when it comes to big stuff, big offenses by big people. I had to start out with something easy like people I love and care about, people I just happen to pass on the street, then people I have "little" irritations with and then the people I feel wronged by. The deal is one has to practice that on oneself as well and for me that's the toughie as I expect myself to be perfect too. Robert Keaten Thanks Rita. Maybe I'm not practicing that type of meditation enough. Noel McInnis Here's a thought for both of you . . . Rita Murphy I like the question Noel. I do. What if they don't give a care about how I feel...talking a work situation here. I'm also scared of crying as I do that. Noel McInnis Make a complete list of everything for which you have trouble forgiving yourself. Then scratch out the item on which you have the least energy. Of those remaining, again scratch out the item on which you have the least energy. Keep doing that until only one item is left. Then set the intention to be forgiving of that - or of something that was near to it on your unforgiviong energy budget. Robert Keaten Interesting approach, Noel. I Rita Murphy The problem for me Noel, is that I often "assume" they don't care enough to hear of how I feel; otherwise why would they say/do what they did in the first place. I'm becoming more aware of my unenforceable rules more and more. Where does that tie in? Then I realize I have a choice here. It helps some... Noel McInnis You might ask someone, "How might I be of greater service to this organization if you cared about my being so?" Noel McInnis In other words, find a way of addressing the issue that is based on common ground. Robert Keaten I don't know about your work situation, Rita, but back in my days in the business world, I found that most people did care, and slights, etc., were usually unintentional. Rita Murphy You probably have heard of it already but a great book by a Buddhist nun, Pema Chodran (sp) When Things Fall Apart has been helpful for me in being at least kinder to myself and accepting I am where I am. Robert Keaten Thanks for the reminder, Rita. I actually have that book, but I haven't looked at it for years. I will now. Noel McInnis It has been helpful for me to realize that things are ALWAYS falling apart. Nothing falls together. Noel McInnis So I no longer expect it to. Noel McInnis Which is a very forgiving perspective. Robert Keaten Noel, you must be an unknown member of my parish Noel McInnis Say more about that, Robert. Robert Keaten You're describing exactly what I'm experiencing there. Noel McInnis What I experience everywhere is that the background of all activity is disorder. Noel McInnis And most people desire order to show up in a way that they don't have to undo their own disorder . . . Noel McInnis . . . i.e., for things to happen to or for them rather than by or through them. Robert Keaten I've enjoyed this, but I need to turn my attention back to the snow covering my driveway. Thanks to both of you for your help. Noel McInnis Happy shovelry, Robert. Rita Murphy I totally agree, Robert. I have worked in the circulation dept for a non-profit enviro newspaper for the past 11 years. I had limited skills in that area but told them I may be head-injured but I was "trainable". A year ago I was passed over for an extension of the job I was doing, would involve learning new computer programming techniques and would expand into other areas of active ad solicitation. That hurt a lot and now I find myself caring alot less about the mission of the paper which I'd always been passionate about. Sorry to go on but that's a thumbnail background of the day to day crap that goes on. What I tried to do yesterday after the incident was to see it as an opportunity for growth. What's really going on is the hurt comes from my pride and jealousy, conceit and fear and worry and doubt. Robert Keaten Rita, you seem to be quite good at being honest with yourself - remember to be kind to yourself as well. So long. Noel McInnis One of my favorite comments (usually entirely to myself) in such situations, Rita, is "Oh Hell! Another chance to grow." Rita Murphy Yeah, I know. I usually just sigh and say oh shit. Here we go again. Rita Murphy This has been great you two. Absolutely great. I feel connected and now I need to know if and how I can save these to be able to go back to the conversation as I have to "log-in" here at work. Noel McInnis Thanks for joining us, Rita.