Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 7:00 a.m. PST The following chat log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Robert Keaten, Noel McInnis, Rita Murphy Robert Keaten enters the chat room Noel McInnis Hello Robert. What's on your mind this morning? Robert Keaten Hi, Noel. I don't know how you do it, but there seems to be a tie between your chat room and my weather. Last week I needed to dig out, and today it's snowing as we speak. It's probably going to mess up my plans for today. Oh well. Noel McInnis I used to live in the Midwest - remember a 23-inch overnight snowfall in Chicago during the late 60's. Noel McInnis No buses were running - I had to walk a mile down the middle of an almost deserted street - except for other walkers - in order to get tp the elevated train to get to work in the suburb of Evanston. (I was among the few who managed to get to work that day, even though many lived a few blocks away. Robert Keaten Unfortunately, we have no El near us. Robert Keaten Regarding what's on my mind, I'm interested in the piece you recently posted dealing with religious translation vs. transformation. I have not had time to do more than skim it, but I want to read it more carefully. What is your take on it? Noel McInnis My take on Ken Wilber in general is that he's one of the most insight-full persons of our time - or any time, for that matter. And the magazine from which the article was taken is one of the most insight-full magazines of all time: What Is Enlightenment? Noel McInnis Its URL is www.wie.org. Robert Keaten Thanks - I'll check it out. Noel McInnis The difference between translation and transformation corresponds roughly with the difference between priests and prophets. Priests comfort the afflicted and prophets afflict the comfortable. Robert Keaten We were taught in seminary that our role was to do both, depending on the people involved and the circumstances. Noel McInnis I endeavor to do both. Robert Keaten So do I, and in my current parish it's more of the latter. Noel McInnis I have discovered that it is often those who are already uncomfortable that don't want to be aware of what prophets have to say. Robert Keaten Interesting - say more about that Noel McInnis For example, I wrote a number of prophetic songs in the 1960's that made my peers angry - though my students loved them. Noel McInnis My peers didn't want to be all that conscious of the problems the songs addressed because they already knew about it, but had to idea what to DO about it. They hoped the culture could be fixed by having others change rather than changing themselves. Noel McInnis In Gandhi's terms, they had no intention of BEING the change they wanted to see in the world, and my songs were about being the change. Robert Keaten Yes. Your comment reminds me of a variant of the Serenity Prayer that I learned in facilitator training: Robert Keaten God grant me the serenity to accept the people I can not change, God grant me the courage to change the person I can change, and God grant me the wisdom to know that person is me. Noel McInnis Fantastic! I'll make great use of it. Rita Murphy enters the chat room Rita Murphy Hi, Robert Keaten Hi Rita. Noel McInnis Hi, Rita! Rita Murphy Sorry to be so late...I always try to give my aged computer at home another chance to redeem itself. Noel McInnis I can empathize, Rita. I've had a brand new computer for a month that is still in the box because I haven't had enough time all at once to make the transition from my clunker. Noel McInnis I've therefore lost - in dribbles - the equivalent of the time it would take to do the conversion. Noel McInnis I'm getting lots of forgiveness practice in the meantime. Noel McInnis And especially in the mean times. Robert Keaten I finally took the plunge a few months ago, and although it was time-consuming and sometimes frustrating, it has proved worth it. Noel McInnis I'm going to have my old "C" drive installed in the new computer as a sub-drive so that nothing is lost. Rita Murphy I cheated and read ahead in the sunflower...was interested in Desmond Tutu's and lots of the others I'd never heard of before. I actually was looking for something from Nelson Mandela. Has anyone read his Long Walk to Freedom? It's an incredible story of forgiveness. Somewhere too throughout these past weeks someone mentioned the psychology behind group consciousness, mob etc. I'm probably not using the correct terminology here but it reminded me of reading Stanley Milgram’s research on obedience. While how the studies were conducted would be highly unethical now, it is rather revealing about what can happen to regular people who get caught up. It caused me to understand more fully how the holocaust could have happened. Noel McInnis I am convinced that a comparable holocaust could happen in this country. Noel McInnis The mass media can convince the majority of us of anything. Rita Murphy Me, too. In fact on a much more miniscule scale I think some of that could have been at play in the recent elections. Robert Keaten Rita, are you familiar with "Moral man, immoral society?" Rita Murphy No, I haven't heard of that book. Who wrote it? Robert Keaten It's by Reinhold (?) Niebuhr. He argues that group dynamics will produce behavior that no individual member of the group would do on their own. Robert Keaten I think we saw some examples of that theory at work in Sunflower. Rita Murphy I've read something of his but will make a note to look that one up. In the meantime I am so reminded of a quote of Hermann Goering, Nazi leader at the Nuremberg Trails after WWII. Noel McInnis Niebuhr also wrote "The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness". Noel McInnis Moral Man and Moral Society is available from Amazon.com, used for only $3.25 [Also see editor’s note 9marked “***” at end of this transcript] Rita Murphy I guess after reading Milgram's obedience stuff I think no one of us can ever say we are immune to mob psychology. And with that perspective I have come to the conclusion that nothing is unforgiveable. Robert Keaten Rita, what was the Goering quote? Rita Murphy "Why of course the people don't want war...But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship....Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." Rita Murphy Thanks for the book info, Noel. Noel McInnis Hitler said, "A leader can get people to do anything he wants because people don't think for themselves." Robert Keaten I agree that nothing is unforgivable, and I think Luskin's suggestions for a process with which to achieve forgiveness is very helpful. Rita Murphy Luskin's tape is great. No working cassette player in my house so I listened to it as I drove to and from an appt, 100 miles round trip. Doing the meditations was difficult though as I couldn't close my eyes. :+) Noel McInnis Jacques Derrida has said that ONLY the unforgivable can be truly forgiven, because all other forgiveness is trivial. Rita Murphy Yeah, it takes a helluva lot a courage to be the first or only one on your street to speak out. In this rural area I think before I put political signs in my pastures. Right now we have a budding Code Pink cell who is sponsoring a peace walk thru town on Mar 19. In addition, they meet weekly and every Wednesday at 5 PM a silent vigil is held in a tiny, tiny little open space in the middle of town. Noel McInnis Speaking of keeping your eyes open while driving: I once - no kidding - fell asleep while driving and drove ten miles before I woke up. Noel McInnis I was so frightened I've managed to stay awake ever since (while driving, that is). Robert Keaten Noel, you were very fortunate. Rita Murphy Wow. I've spaced out several times and headed in the wrong direction and have caught myself dozing off but thank god not for ten minutes. How lucky you and we are that your guardian angel had her arms around you. Noel McInnis It was at night-time and in light traffic - but in the midst of it I paid a bridge toll. Robert Keaten The closest I've come to that experience is once after a long session in court I started driving and thinking about what had happened, and I was well on the way home before I "came to" and realized I was supposed to be going to a local hotel. Noel McInnis I've had more of those kinds of experience, Robert, than I care to add up. Robert Keaten I've had some others, but none quite that dramatic. I've learned from this to pay attention if I'm driving somewhere off my usual paths. Noel McInnis I now take L-Tyrosine if I'm likely to be drowsy. It's an amino acid that works far better than coffee in keeping one alert. Noel McInnis I fact I've given some thought to repackaging and remarketing it as "New Clear Energy". :<) Rita Murphy Thanks Noel for the tip on L-Tyrosine. Robert Keaten Careful - you're chatting with a Nuclear Physicist here :+) Noel McInnis Aha! That's a strange love for a minister. Robert Keaten Even stranger, and something that gets comments, is a jacket I wear with an L.L. Bean patch on one side and TMI on the other. Noel McInnis I was told in the early 70's that the half-life for a nuclear physicist who didn't spend nearly full time keeping up with the lierature was about six years. Noel McInnis TMI = Three Mile Island? Rita Murphy That whole business is yet another reason I try to force myself to live in the moment, to pay attention and not get on automatic pilot and then wonder if I remembered to turn to furnace switch back on or unplug the coffee pot. Not easy when routine settles in though and I know when I was commuting to work 30 miles everyday, that's when I did my thinking and mulling over. Equally spacy. Robert Keaten I doubt it's that long now, but early in my career I switched over to nuclear engineering - and Yes, it's Three Mile Island, one of the plants I worked at. Rita Murphy What years did you work there Robert and how did you get to where you are now? Robert Keaten I came to New Jersey in 1978, where the ccorporate headquarters of General Public Utilities was located. They were the owners and operators of Three Mile Island and Oyster Creek nuclear power plants. I have continued to live here, and I did lots of commuting to the stations. Rita Murphy You're still in NJ then? Robert Keaten Yes, in a suburban community about 25 miles due west of midtown Manhattan. Rita Murphy And I have two bumper stickers on my car. One says "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." The other is "I can't go to work today, the voices told me to 'stay home and clean the guns' ". Robert Keaten I've enjoyed the chat, but I have to go now. Rita Murphy There's something I'm puzzled about in the readings. I had never heard or even thought about the idea that one person had the capacity to forgive or not for the collective of victims. Noel McInnis Let's pick up on that later, Rita. I also have to shovel off - to another meeting. Rita Murphy It's been great guys. Thanks for the interchange. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace! Rita Murphy Likewise! ***A brief review of Moral Man and Immoral Society at Amazon.com: Moral Man and Immoral Society This is the most compelling argument for democracy I have read. All other forms of government lack the necessary tools to keep corruption or tyranny in check. If the true necessity of democracy is not understood, democracy itself can be used for corruptive or tyrannical ends. Reinhold Niebuhr's insight into freedom and order's mutual dependence in society is simple and yet profound. The individual requires order, and society needs freedom, to a greater extent than is commonly understood.