Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 5:00 p.m. PST The following chat log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. It also contains commentary at the end by Noel McInnis, who was detained from attending the chat. In attendance: Susan Burgess, Polly Estes Susan Burgess sorry i am late Susan Burgess technical difficulties Susan Burgess since no one is here, i'll hang out for a bit (i'm at work) and do e-mail and see if anyone materializes :) Polly Estes Hi Susan Susan Burgess Hi Polly Polly Estes I just looked up at the clock at work and saw the time Polly Estes Has the chat finished already. Am I too late? Susan Burgess I know, I'm at work too Susan Burgess Noel will probably be along in a moment Susan Burgess sometimes he wanders off if no one is here right at 5:00 Polly Estes Oh good. So what did you think about the reading so far? Susan Burgess well, i have kind of a long blathering reaction to it Susan Burgess how are you finding it? Susan Burgess I am specifically referencing the first part of The Sunflower Polly Estes Very interesting, but I must admit that I tend to be much more concrete about things, and most of the points of view expressed in the books are about things that cannot be proved and all depend on who you are talking about, which I find to be an uneasy place to sit. Polly Estes I'm an attorney working at a court and I tend to concentrate on hard and fast rules that are intended to apply to everyone so I'm having to shift my way of thinking a bit, which is good for me. Polly Estes Well, I automatically look at things from a legal perspective, and frankly, I cannot imagine forgiving anybody that would commit such atrocities as they did in the Holocaust Susan Burgess ah, interesting. So you would not say that in law, although the rules apply to everyone, there is room for interpretation? Susan Burgess I'm just thinking of the Constitution, for one : ) Susan Burgess Right, but forgiveness doesn't mean what they did was moral, or legal Susan Burgess although at the time they did it, apparently it WAS legal Polly Estes I understand that any of us at any time might be capable of following the crown and falling into a pattern of conduct that we would not on our own choose to follow, but I still believe in free will. And the officers chose to follow the orders of their superiors and kill all those people. Polly Estes Good point. I'm still having trouble with the difference in the concepts of forgiveness and condoning the actions. Susan Burgess Right, I believe in free will as well Polly Estes Of course laws are open to interpretation, but I happen to be one of those lawyers who thinks a judge's duty is to stick as close as possible to the actual text of the law they are supposed to be applying. Susan Burgess I thought Wiesenthal’s response/reaction was quite elegant, perhaps even eloquent, even though it stemmed from confusions Polly Estes Yes. He's a bigger man than I Susan Burgess he didn't say "I don't forgive you" but (here comes the blathering part), I will try to keep myself in check...I don't know that he had the OPTION to say "I don't forgive you," as he wouldn't have been safe Polly Estes I suppose that after grappling with the problem for years, he found a way to forgive all humanity because of course it wasn't just one soldier, it was everyone who didn't stop the atrocities Susan Burgess Nevertheless, he left the door open by saying nothing, he could change what "saying nothing" meant. Susan Burgess it is unclear to me whether he ultimately DID forgive that soldier Polly Estes True, and I suppose that in his heart, as with most of us, his response changed drastically over time. Susan Burgess part of me thought, he saw that the soldier HAD a conscience and was capable of feeling remorse Polly Estes I haven't finished the book yet so I don't know what his end conclusion was, but he seems to have made peace with the past Susan Burgess perhaps that informed his decision/life's work to go after Nazi War Criminals Polly Estes It does make it a lot easier to forgive someone if they acknowledge that what they did was wrong Susan Burgess because if they were incapable of feeling remorse, maybe it wouldn't be worth chasing them and giving them more attention Polly Estes But I think people never stop feeling like they can make someone feel remorse, even if they know on an intellectual level that the person never has felt remorse in the past Susan Burgess I think that is largely true Susan Burgess I also admit that I knew who Weisenthal was/is before I read the book so that probably impacted my interpretation Polly Estes Oh, have you read other writings of his? Susan Burgess I haven't, but I have been to a Weisenthal Center/Museum, in L.A., the Museum of Tolerance Susan Burgess and had a very powerful experience there Polly Estes Why do you suppose that we as human beings want someone to feel remorse for what they did to us? Susan Burgess ego? Polly Estes I'm supposed to go to LA in April, I'll have to put that on my To See list Polly Estes You know Ego has a lot to answer for Susan Burgess The Museum is good, but the best part, for me, was I stayed and went to the center where they have Survivor Testimonies Susan Burgess and this women, probably in her 70s told about her experience in the camps as a teenager Susan Burgess and she had FORGIVEN what had happened to her and moved on...she was not bitter Susan Burgess I did not understand it at the time, but I think I am starting to Polly Estes Thanks for telling me. I'll look for the Testimonials Susan Burgess yes, ego is difficult :) Susan Burgess going back to the previous topic Polly Estes I think the lessons from this book could be a big help to all of us because I fear that America may be entering a long war with the Arab world in general Susan Burgess me too Polly Estes I would hate to see us wind up like Jerusalem and Palestine. Susan Burgess i agree, that is another thing i just don't understand....how situations become so, intractable Polly Estes I'm a dyslexic typer, just so you know, not to mention a terrible speller Susan Burgess no worries...i'm able to make sense of it so far Polly Estes I don't know, but they certainly seem to mushroom out of control until neither side feels it can ever forgive the other side no matter what concessions are made Susan Burgess exactly Polly Estes Take England and Northern Ireland for example Susan Burgess it is easy to say "Ok, NO ONE gets Jerusalem, sorry -- nothing to see here, move on" Polly Estes I've lived in both places as a student, and the people in each place seems perfectly reasonable Susan Burgess but that's not the answer, of course, i'm just saying... Polly Estes But when they each thought about the other they became completely irrational Susan Burgess maybe everyone needs an "enemy" Polly Estes It is hard to know what the answer is about Jerusalem Susan Burgess to project evil onto...some people project it on themselves, some onto individuals close to them, while other societies make up a whole construct of demonizing an entire other whole society/country/political group Polly Estes Now that's an idea. Why do you suppose we need an enemy? Do you think it's like Germany in the 1930's. Their economy had tanked and they wanted to believe it was someone's fault so they could blame it on that group, punish them, and then all would be well again? Susan Burgess and then it becomes easier to de-personalize Polly Estes De-personalizing is definitely key. Susan Burgess i have heard that rationale before about Germany in the 30s, of why it was compelling for people to "just go along Polly Estes For instance, I live in California now, but am originally from Texas, and both states think the other is too liberal/conservative. People in each state tend to lump the entire other state in one category. Drives me nuts Susan Burgess ha! Susan Burgess and Northern California wants to secede (sp) from Southern California Polly Estes Well, that does need to happen Polly Estes :) Susan Burgess :) Susan Burgess we do have that whole blue/red state thing going on after the election Polly Estes Why do you suppose we each need a rival, if not an enemy? Like schools? They always have a rival? Susan Burgess which is largely an oversimplification and a distraction Susan Burgess something to compare ourselves to? Susan Burgess which, you're not supposed to do :) Polly Estes Do you think it is so difficult to forgive someone because that would be lifting them back up to our own level? Susan Burgess but seems to be part of human nature or compulsion ...how am I doing, who am I doing better than, who's doing better than me? Susan Burgess No, I tend to think of it as (kind of like he says in the book), you have to give up your attachment to the hurt/wrongdoing Polly Estes Yes, keeping up with the Jones does seem to be ingrained in all of us, even the ones who profess that they don't play that game. Then there's just a contest to see who doesn't keep up with the Jones the best Susan Burgess you have to give something up that is important to you Polly Estes But is what we are giving up the need to feel superior? Susan Burgess and maybe, gee, if I stop putting my energy THERE, in making that person wrong, not only do they get off the hook, but what am I going to do with my time? Polly Estes Yes, who would we complain about and blame our problems on Susan Burgess exactly Polly Estes I was once so wedded to the idea that my problems were the fault of my ex-boyfriend that I overlooked several key things Polly Estes like I was forgetting things, became lethargic, and started gaining weight. I blamed it all on him Polly Estes Turns out I had thyroid cancer Susan Burgess oh my! Polly Estes Boy did I feel stupid. Polly Estes It turned out O.K. though Polly Estes I've now been cancer free for some time Susan Burgess oh, good, i was just going to hope that for you Polly Estes but it taught me an important lesson Polly Estes Even if someone is a real shmuck in your life, it doesn't mean that all your problems are their fault Susan Burgess yeah, that's a good thing to learn, also that you have choices Polly Estes I try to remember that and stop myself each time I find myself blaming someone else for something that is wrong with my life Polly Estes If I hadn't stopped blaming him, I might have waited until it was too late to look for another source of the trouble Susan Burgess When I start thinking of myself as a victim, if I can get the perspective, I try to think, "What choices are you making that are causing you to feel /behave this way? What other choices could you make?" Susan Burgess how did you decide to stop blaming him? Polly Estes Good question to ask oneself Polly Estes Now how can we as a country ask that same question? Susan Burgess well....somehow it has to make the jump from the personal "I" to the collective "we" Susan Burgess i think... Polly Estes I miss having Colin Powell as the Secretary of State because I think he was good at asking how can we solve this problem without always blaming the other country etc. Susan Burgess Yeah, I liked him quite well Polly Estes But then, maybe Condoleeza Rice will surprise me Susan Burgess I think having a better educated, more "evolved" and I honestly don't mean that in an elitist way, population could do wonders Susan Burgess get people thinking for themselves Polly Estes Yes, as Noel said in an earlier chat, Hitler said "A leader can get people to do anything he wants because people don't think for themselves." Susan Burgess instead of relying on whatever messages the mass media is handing out, or worse, having no awareness about political and social issues at all Polly Estes True. I think we have evolved into a very passive society. Perhaps because that is what the nature of television has trained us to be Polly Estes And I think it's a shame that most people stop learning when they leave high school or college. Susan Burgess me too! it's like people are immune to new information Polly Estes That's one reason why I thought the courses on this Web site looked so good. They would keep me thinking, even if only in the few moments I can spare here and there. Susan Burgess wow, it's 6:00 already...i guess Noel's not going to make it after all, or he thought we bailed on him and left earlier Susan Burgess yes, exactly, i miss school for that very reason! Polly Estes I guess not, and unfortuantely, I need to return to work Polly Estes But I really did enjoy chatting with you Susan Burgess My job is intellectually stimulating but in a very high tech way Susan Burgess yes, it was great to chat with you, too Susan Burgess hope you have a good rest of the week! Polly Estes Really, what do you do if you don't mind my asking? Susan Burgess oh, I work at Microsoft Polly Estes Cool Polly Estes That place must be full of really smart people Susan Burgess yeah, it's a great place to work and yes, everyone is pretty smart Polly Estes I am lucky enough to work with some smart people myself, but they do have limited interests Susan Burgess and we have a lot of fun and solve interesting problems, but, it's a business Polly Estes I hear they give you a general I.Q. test in the interview, is that true? Susan Burgess no....just a rumor I'm afraid Polly Estes Ahhh. Well, must run. Take care and we can chat again next week. Susan Burgess ok, sounds good, take care! ******** A CONCLUDING METAPHYSICAL POSTSCRIPT: As an ex post facto (a.k.a. "Johnny-come-lately") participant in this chat, I would like to comment on two matters mentioned above, concerning the making of comparisons and the effectiveness of information. Some 30 years ago I realized that ALL comparisons are unforgiving, and set about to cease making them. The occasion of this recognition was another of my so-called I-openers: I'd like to stop comparing myself with other people. Comparing has become a heavy burden on my soul. I can always think of ways that I seem to be “better” than another, but others always seem to be “better” than I in some ways, too, and the “better” seemed in others seems more certain. Comparing always leaves me feeling a deficit. I can always find at least one person “better” than I in any given quality, yet this is never fully compensated by my estimate of others who are “not as good” as I. I feel each quality begin to die in me whenever I compare it with that quality in others. There are so many more of others than of me, that comparing myself to them is a game I only lose. I would no longer overlook that other people are for loving, however they may be, not for comparing. Although contrast is unavoidable (there would be no basis for perception if the cosmos were without contrasts), comparison is always optional. Comparisons represent judgmental discernments of contrast, the non-judgmental alternative to which is relatively impersonal discernment. (I say "relatively" impersonal because there can be no such thing as purely impersonal discernment when discernment is being done by persons.) *********** As for the effectiveness of information: Information is most influential when it reinforces existing perceptions and behavior. It is least influential when it implies a change of perception and behavior. Accordingly, we pay attention mostly to information that reinforces the way we already think abd behave, and for the most part discount all information to the contrary by ignoring it, denying it, attacking it, etc. With few exceptions, our thinking and behavior is subject to change by contrary information ONLY when we experience a change of cirumstances. (And even then, not always. A resident of an area of the U.S. Atlantic seacoast that vfrequently weathers hurricanes responded to an interviewer: "Oh yeah, we have windy spells here - but no storms.") While many if not most educators fool themselves into believeing that new information changes thinking and behavior, almost all of the information they deliver to their students is information that does little more than newly reinforce existing thinking and behavior. In other words: education exists for teachers (transmitters of information) first, and students (receivers of information) second. Even more simpoly put: education exists for teaching and not for learning (other than ingesting and regurgitating what is taught). In the 1960's I came across several statements that reshaped my own "teaching" methodology: "A student is not a vessel to be filled, but a lamp to be lighted." - Nicholay Berdyayev "A student should consider his[her] teacher as a rival, not a model." Belinski (whose first name I have forgotten) "If you would educate a [wo]man, fill his[her] belly and emptry his[her] mind." -Tao Te Ching "It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit himself in his own true character-that is, as an ignorant man thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge." -Alfred North Whitehead "There is no such thing as genius. Some children are less damaged than others." -Bucky Fuller "We treat our children like nouns, even though they exist as verbs." - Bucky Fuller These insights gave rise to an I-opener that is actually a song, the initial version of which was written in 1965, as some of its idioms make quite clear. The final verse was added in 2003. On behalf of degenderizing its lyrics, in successive verses I alternate between male and female pronouns, thereby necessitating that men sometimes do whatever it is that women have always had to do to feel that they are included in h(e)mankind. Most every newborn babe in this universe is put together mighty fine. Though one of millions conceived in nature's bountiful purse, he's the only one of his kind. Born for perfection, given over-protection, he's boxed in body and mind. Born to be him, he's raised to be us, and we put him in a lifetime bind. We've gotta let grow our little children, cause verbs weren't meant to be nouns. Yeah, children are a whole lot like people that way, and we've gotta stop puttin’ ‘em down. The six-year-old child is brought into school where we tell her what she doesn't know. We tell her what we're gonna tell her, then we tell her, then we tell her that we told her so. Born for creation, not regurgitation, she diligently wilts in her row. Born to think her thoughts, she's stenciled with ours, and she's made to be someone she won't know. We've gotta let know our growing children, cause verbs weren't meant to be nouns. Yeah, students are a whole lot like people that way, and we've gotta stop puttin’ ‘em down. When graduation comes the student's on his way, he can start to be a human being. But he'll only have a couple hours a day when he's not serving some machine. Born for relations, it's for manipulations his life is rewarded so green. Born to do his thing, but doing some thing's thing, he seldom gets a chance to mean. We've gotta let go our grown-up children, cause verbs weren't meant to be nouns. Yeah, grown-ups are a whole lot like people that way, and we've gotta stop puttin’ ‘em down. [My use of the feminine gender in the next verse created quite a stir in the 1960’s] Though our Creator saw that all she made was good, we haven't learned to share her trust. We think that other people behave as they should only when they act like us. Born for expression, not moral repression, they never become what they might. Born to sow their seeds, they're made to reap ours, and they never grow in their own right. We've gotta let sow our fellow sinners, cause verbs weren't meant to be nouns. Yeah, sinners are a whole lot like people that way, and we've gotta stop puttin’ ‘em down. Though others get on my case, my only disgrace is to join with them in their loss cause. No matter what they may think, it’s with me I’m in synch, for which I don’t require their applause. Born for presentment, not others’ contentment, I’m here to be on my own way. Born to do my dance, not listen to their can’ts, it’s time for me to script my own play. I’ve gotta let grow my way of being, cause verbs weren’t meant to be nouns. Yeah, my self is a whole lot like all selves that way, and I’ve gotta stop puttin’ it down.