Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 7:00 a.m. PST The following chat log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Robert Keaten, Noel McInnis, Rita Murphy [Robert Keaten enters the chat room] Noel McInnis Hello, Robert. You made it after all. Short clergy meeting? Robert Keaten Yes - we got done much quicker than I expected Noel McInnis That seldom happens in my experience. Was it a community clergy group? Robert Keaten Yes, the five churches In Lincoln Park, NJ. The meeting was short because it was only a follow-up to a previous one, and everything that needed to have been done was done! Noel McInnis A meeting to announce the good news that the meeting was not necessary? Robert Keaten Almost. We did, however, have some discussion of need ideas for cooperative work in the community. [Rita Murphy enters the chat room] Noel McInnis Hello, Rita. Rita Murphy Hi Guys Rita Murphy What's going on??? Robert Keaten Hi, Rita. We have been discussing my meeting this morning with local clergy. Noel McInnis So what's on your respective forgiveness radars this morning? Rita Murphy I'm so impressed with you guys as clergy. Noel McInnis Thank you, Rita. So long as we aren't unduly impressed ourselves, the role works O.K. Robert Keaten Believe me, we have our problems. My biggest one right now is trying to get our church members to come to church. Noel McInnis Ah, yes, attendance . . . Noel McInnis A perennial problem for most ministers. Rita Murphy Last week, on two separate occasions in the Denver Post...one made huge headlines on the front page about this guy they'd finally caught who'd in the course of I don't know a yr, maybe 6 months, had raped over 30 women, beaten some etc. etc. Headlines read that he "...seeks forgiveness from his victims." A few days later a similar story was printed in which the offender was asking forgiveness from those he'd victimized. It left me very confused, dazed and wondering what that must have been like for the victims. Robert Keaten Rita, as a woman, what reaction do you think you would have in that situation. Rita Murphy The last woman, who also he'd known as a prostitute at some time and I think to whom he went for "help" or something said I forgive you as he repeatedly raped her. He'd tried to give himself up to the cops but got some smart-ass who told him he was scum and that's when he went on the rampage. Of course there are conflicting stories. Rita Murphy You know to me that would be the ultimate violation so I really don't know and wouldn't know until I was in that situation. But I do know that once I know there is always a sordid, cruel, inhumane childhood I have an empathy that at times scares me. Noel McInnis This reminds me of a corollary to the adage, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." The problem is that words can cause sticks and stones to be thrown. Noel McInnis Why does it scare you, Rita? Rita Murphy And once they're thrown, you can't call them back and so one deals with the guilt & responsibility knowing one has hurt someone else. Rita Murphy It scares me because when I come across very embittered people or people who instantly form judgments of the human, I know there's two sides to it and on one hand, I can be empathetic to the victim or the offended and on the other I feel compelled to know what the underlying causes were which caused the perpetrator to act that way. Noel McInnis And why are you afraid to know that? What is scary about understanding both "sides"? Rita Murphy Because once I know the story I have this compulsion to try to make the other person aware that there were underlying reasons for that behavior and......I guess I can't believe people are genuinely evil. Rita Murphy And that, no matter what everyone deserves another chance just based on that fact that there's a human being behind that. Noel McInnis Does such awareness mitigate the act of violence? Or just one's perception of the violator? Rita Murphy I feel it's the perception. Noel McInnis There's the difference between you and those who don’t know the difference between perception and presumed objective fact. Robert Keaten I guess I believe that there are people who for whatever reason have just lost any sense of caring about what they do to others as long as they gratify their own desires. Rita Murphy But I've also been proven wrong on that as you well may guess and have borne the consequences for having made incorrect decisions. But, I don't regret it. I learned to be more cautious and untrusting, it's made me less reluctant to reach out to offenders.... Robert Keaten And while there may in fact be an underlying cause(s) it's buried too deep to find easily. Rita Murphy And I don't like that I've become that way. Noel McInnis To some degree, Robert, I suspect most of us have at least a tinch of sociopathy. Rita Murphy Is that the dark side/shadow which exists in each of us. And that was also a factor in the holocaust? Noel McInnis It sounds to me, Rita, that you are saying you don't like the fact that you are more universally caring than some others. Robert Keaten I agree, Noel, but not to the degree I'm discussing here. Rita Murphy Well, Noel, I don't have a lot of people who understand that. Rita Murphy I guess I believe in the basics of the gospel, the Sermon on the Mount, etc. Noel McInnis I know of one case in which a woman was so caring of people in general that her husband and children asked her to leave them. Noel McInnis She remarried to a man who was similarly caring. Robert Keaten Say more about that Noel Noel McInnis Her family was jealous of her caring for others seemingly as much as she cared for them. Noel McInnis Her caring for others came about after she had three "near-death" experiences within a few weeks. Noel McInnis Her name is Phyllis Atwater. She's a personal friend who has written several books about near-death experiences. Rita Murphy My husband was for our first years together also very jealous. But I'd never had any near-death experiences. Noel McInnis It was quite a revelation to me when I first realized that not all jealousy is sexual. Rita Murphy I just don't know where that came from. My dad, a rancher with 3rd grad education who was already in his 60's when I was born and I was #11, always told me "Rita Ann. You don't have the hard finish on you.” Noel McInnis I, too, lack the "hard finish", for which I am eternally grateful. Robert Keaten Likewise Rita Murphy I never heard him say that to any of the rest of them and I thought it was because I wasn't tough enough to "take" it and therefore saw myself lacking in something until I was an adult. Noel McInnis Religiously, the "hard finish" tends to go with - and not always - fundamentalism. Rita Murphy But sometimes I feel it's seen as "emoting." Robert Keaten What's seen as emoting? Rita Murphy Crying at the misfortune some people have. Crying and heart ache tht there's so much pain and needless suffering in the world, to me anyway that's emoting. Noel McInnis Rita: the shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept." Robert Keaten I understand - but I'd call it part of loving your neighbor as yourself. Rita Murphy That's what I don't get. One shrink once told me that my "problem was that I expected other people to treat me as I treated them. I always thought that's the way it was supposed to be. My early adult heroine was Dorothy Day. Noel McInnis Rita: I'm reminded of Jesus' remark about the stone that men rejected that become the cornerstone. Noel McInnis It takes a heap of maturity to recognize some cornerstones. Rita Murphy Noel, what did Jesus say??? Noel McInnis He said to the Pharisees (if I remember correctly) that the stone they had rejected - namely, the truth that he represented - would become the cornerstone of the teaching he represented. (Is that a valid interpretation, Robert?) Rita Murphy Thanks for reminding me of that shortest verse. Robert Keaten Probably - there are several interpretations that have been suggested, one is that Jesus himself is the cornerstone. Noel McInnis Robert: Jesus certainly qualifies as the cornerstone, insofar as he embodied the truth he represented. Noel McInnis Rita: the secret is to have that ATTITUDE without the expectation. Rita Murphy That's so true, Noel. so true. Thanks for the reminder. Noel McInnis Concerning expectation, Shakespeare may have said it all: anticipation is greater than realization. Robert Keaten A related saying comes from chess: the threat is more powerful than the execution. Noel McInnis I like that, Robert. I'll add it to my forthcoming "Gospel of Yet To Be Common Sense". Rita Murphy I'm going to have to cut out of this soon as the phones are beginning to ring. I have totally enjoyed this exchange. Robert Keaten So long Rita - I'm also going to have to leave. Noel McInnis I've enjoyed it also, Rita, and look forward to next Tuesday's chat. Noel McInnis Stay in the grace y'all. Rita Murphy Cheers.