Monday, March 21, 2005 - 7:00 a.m. PST The following chat log has been modestly edited to remove technical and procedural distractions and rearrange some discourse in a less random order to make it more easily readable. In attendance: Robert Keaton, Rita Murphy NOTE: Additional commentary from Noel McInnis, who was prevented from attending the chat, has been added at the end of this chat log. Robert Keaten Hi - is anyone else here? [Rita Murphy enters the chat room] Robert Keaten Hi, Rita Rita Murphy Hi Guys, Rita Murphy Happy Monday...I think. Robert Keaten I don't think Noel is here yet Rita Murphy I can't believe this class is having such an impact on me and in my relationships with my kids and friends... Robert Keaten How many kids and what ages? Rita Murphy Sat there was a huge propane explosion at a lodge accessible only by snowmobile. A family gathering, people were only just arriving so there were about 60 people involved. It was amazing that people from all over were contacting me as to what had gone on as CNN, Fox and some others had broadcast it. Two are three children are still unaccounted for. Very sad and I'm just waiting to hear who all was there as in a small community like this, one always knows someone involved. So...it's very sad... Rita Murphy I have 4 but two of them are still finding their way with relationships and all... Rita Murphy Thomas is a Sr in college, Chris is 25 and works in Springfield MO at a pretty deadend job, has an 8 mo-old baby girl, is NOT with the mom, and now after telling his girlfriend to move out is apologizing and trying to win her back. He's so sensitive and always seems to have to make these kinds of mistakes over and over, and so was crying when we finished our conversation. He's adopted as well as Thomas and still deals with abandonment issues a lot. So I was telling him about unenforcable rules, that this morning I wanted him to go out and look at the sky, grass, etc...I'd just finished Luskin's chapter on gratitude, etc. But. It's hard for me to be tough and not opt into his self pity when I know only too well the depression and utter pain that comes with loss and rejection. Robert Keaten I am interested in how this class has helped your relationships . . . is it because you are finding it easier to forgive past mistakes? Rita Murphy Yeah, it's helped in that I'm less reactive to touchy situtations. Did get into a huge political argument with my very best man-friend. We re raised very much alike and he wanted to know where I went wrong. I woke up this AM and told him we were cut out of the same cloth, just got made into different shirts and just because one had snaps and one had buttons, they still were good shirts. Rita Murphy It's not so much about past mistakes but picking up on "stuff" as it's happening, which actually is pretty neat. Robert Keaten Yes, I understand the difficulty in being tough with your children - I've also had to do it and I did not find it easy. But "tough love" is sometimes what they really need. Robert Keaten It is neat, and I'm determined to learn how to do it better.. Rita Murphy But all I really want to do is hug 'em and hold' em..probably good we don't live any closer... Robert Keaten I found Dr. Luskin's discussion of being a forgiving person in chapter 14 very interesting and challenging. Rita Murphy With me I want to make it a habit like Luskin pointed out but I actually think I'm going to have to write reminders to myself on sticky notes so that I'll see throughout the day Rita Murphy I don't know if I got that far last night.... and I rarely remember the #'s of the chapters. Can you give me a clue? Robert Keaten I need to practice forgiving people who cut me off on the highway Rita Murphy I'm probably one of those people who cut you off, though. And, there are different ways of getting "cut off" for me.... Robert Keaten He describes it as stage four of forgiveness . . . becoming a forgiving person . . . making the decision to forgive first, and let many troubling things go. Robert Keaten He suggests practicing on all the little things that happen on a daily basis . . . like the many different ways of being "cut off." Robert Keaten I don't usually hold grudges, but I do use up energy in the short term being angry when something like that happens, and it's energy wasted. Rita Murphy You know Robert, in our last chat session I found myself afterward wanting to ask you and Noel, how one acquires empathy as I believe that is a cornerstone of being able to forgive. Is it learned? Is it something that has to happen to me before I can know what pain I might be causing by hurting someone, including myself? I do want to be more forgiving of myself as well and I don't know if I'm anywhere near where I want to be... Robert Keaten I'm no expert, but I'll give you my answer. I believe empathy can be learned . . . I think of it as trying to identify with the other person's needs and desires and trying to understand how those needs and desires cause their behaviors, including ones I don't like Rita Murphy OK, yeah, I did read it. Thanks for the reminder. After my discussion/argument with my friend I called him this morning and told him I couldn't stand the way we were communicating. He thought I was mad at him and I thought he was ticked at me for having the views I do and ...it had to do with Iraq, what else? Rita Murphy And then what do you do with that? Robert Keaten To the extent I can really identify with the other persons internal needs, I can then see the results behaviors as what I would probably do if I were him or her, and that makes it easier to accept them as they are. Robert Keaten Incidently, I think your comment to your friend about not liking the way you were communicating was a very good way to approach the problem. Rita Murphy I like to think I'm empatheic but I also have opinions I guess and that's what gets in the way sometimes. There's quite a divisivness now in our town over parts of the Patriot act, a resolution was passed and sent by the town council renouncing parts of it, next week there was standing room only as the "other side" felt they'd been duped and hadn't gotten their side heard. And in the back of my mind I'm trying to think of a way that ...it would have to start very small of course with just a couple of people, but to sit down together and really HEAR what the other person is saying and to imagine oneself in their shoes. The person/s listening would have to totally put their agendas on the table which the one person is speaking. Am I being totally naive here? I did speak to one woman, a business owner who was having a lot of problems with the passage of the resolution and when I saw her on the street I presented this idea to her. She just pretty much thought it is impossible., that there always will be a division. Robert Keaten Actually I believe it is possible, but only if people are willing to make a serious effort. Most of the time I don't see this willingness. Rita Murphy But what makes you want to do it in the first place. In the case with my friend it helped me to know that these were unenforcable rules and I really DO understand and had a similar background and I knew he wouldn't contact me to talk about it. Rita Murphy I agree but wonder where this unwillingness comes from. Pride? Ego? Fear? I know a bit of all of those enters into my bull-headedness at times. Robert Keaten I was taught in facilitator training a method for a husband and wife (or two good friends) to really listen to each other. They sit knee to knee (literally) and one goes first. That person spends five minutes saying what's on his/her mind, and the partner must listen and try to remember what was said. After the 5 minutes, the partner must then repeat back what he or she heard, and gets corrected as needed. Then the roles are reversed. Robert Keaten I agree that pride, ego, fear are factors in the unwillingness. Sometimes ignorance can also be a factor. Rita Murphy I've thought a lot about common ground and what people have at stake in refusing to really accept another person and all he/she believes. Somehow I think the incentive comes for me when there's a shared goal of some kind. I always rail about the "teach tolerance" stuff. Why aren't we teaching acceptance. Tolerance to me, don't get me wrong here as I think it's better than intolerance but I think it's still missing the boat somehow. Robert Keaten I think that "acceptance" is right on. Robert Keaten Noel's comment "Forgiveness is the granting of harmless passage in my mind to all that passes through it" is very meaningful to me. I think it may be a way of striving to become a "forgiving person." Rita Murphy Yea, I've heard of that before too. I used to do something like that with my family when there were big disagreements or lots of anger. We'd set aside a time for a meeting and the ground rules were that one person had his/her say and then the other or others, and that none could leave the table feeling like they'd lost of given up something. The kids hated it at first and of course as they got older I could "make" them participate but most of them were pretty successful but then it was mostly about kid stuff too. Rita Murphy Yeah, I think so too. I especially like the words "...harmless passage. ..." Robert Keaten But requiring people to repeat back what was said insures that they will listen rather than spending the time thinking about what they are going to say. Rita Murphy It's very helpful doing these Buddhist meditation classes at the same time as this class. It just happened that way and I'm not regular with it....but it has made me aware of how much kinder and forgiving and loving I need to be with myself...if I truly want to be a forgiving person of others. Robert Keaten I am anxious to spend more time with the book you recommended. I've gone far enough in it to see that it can be very helpful to me in the way you just mentioned. Robert Keaten I like the idea of trying to simply accept whatever feelings we are having at any particular moment and accepting them as part of life. Rita Murphy Yeah, having people repeat what was said is a great idea I'd not thought of....thanks! I heard about the knee-to-knee sitting is used in rehab houses. A friend of mine whose wife was in rehab did that and it really made him see things from her perspective....I'd forgotten... Rita Murphy I try to accept them too but sometimes I'm not at all proud of some of my feelings and thoughts...that's when I get intolerant of myself.... Robert Keaten Rita, I'm going to have to go . . . this is the beginning of Holy Week, and I'm going to busier than a one-armed paper hanger. I've really enjoyed our communications, and if you don't mind, I'd like to stay in touch by E-mail. Rita Murphy Well Robert, I'm going to have to get to work here. It's been wonderful having these exchanges....and I'll miss them. Take good care... Rita Murphy And yes, I would like that also. Very much. I feel I'm in a void here sometimes but that's probably my own doing as well as the circumstances. Let's keep in touch... Rita Murphy then. Bye-bye. Robert Keaten Will do - I have your address. Have a good one. Rita Murphy And have a wonderful Holy Week and Easter celebration. I miss community at times like this so very much. COMMENTARY BY NOEL McINNIS: SOMETHING THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS COURSE: The main reason I teach this course has perhaps been best stated in Richard Bach's book, Illusions: "We teach best that which we most need to learn." It is now apparent to me that one of the things I most needed to learn about chat sessions is that very meaningful ones can occur in my absence. I say this because this is the second time that colleagues in this course have enjoyed just such a chat in my absence, and have shared much that would not have come to light in this course had I been present. As an ex post facto observer of these sessions, I learn much that I would otherwise not know concerning what my discussion board colleagues are thinking about, dealing with, and would like to know. And when I am so moved, I can still productively participate in in the session as an ex post facto commentator. As a consquence of this new learning on my part, I will hereafter set up four chats each week, at only two of which I will schedule my own attendance. ON EMPATHY: Rita's question about how one acquires empathy moves me to observe that the operational definition of the quality called "empathy" is "compassion". Accordingly, I recommend to all of you a book by Marc Ian Barasch entitled "Field Notes on the Compassionate Life: A Search for the Soul of Kindness". The book is reviewed at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579547117/qid=1111772482/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8549396-3963053?v=glance&s=books